Major Juniors vs. MN high school coach's assoc. - 2/26 Strib

[almostashappy]

hockey hub has reposted a detailed, well-written article in the Strib about the tension between WHL/Major Juniors and the MN high school hockey coaches association (and, indirectly, NCAA hockey). It focuses on Alec Baer's situation as the lead-in, but also touches on what others have faced (e.g. Bittner family).

Here's the link: http://www.mnhockeyhub.com/news_article ... r_id=32770

Ken Pauley is quoted on this top far more than I've ever seen before. He doesn't speak as the BSM coach, but as the head of the coach's association. Subtle enough difference?

Pauly said his decision to dismiss Baer "is related to Major Junior hockey" but declined to comment further because Baer remains a student.

Speaking as the president of the coaches' group, Pauly said: "A trip to a college is in keeping with the overall mission and vision of high school athletics. I don't believe the Major Junior and Minnesota high school model are complementary pieces."

I know there's an active thread on Juniors, but that's geared more towards a discussion of who is leaving to play spring hockey with NAHL/USHL teams. Most recent Alec Baer thread was locked.

[scorekeeper]

Pauly said his decision to dismiss Baer "is related to Major Junior hockey" but declined to comment further because Baer remains a student.

Speaking as the president of the coaches' group, Pauly said: "A trip to a college is in keeping with the overall mission and vision of high school athletics. I don't believe the Major Junior and Minnesota high school model are complementary pieces."

So basically he feels comfortable substituting his opinion for the parents/player with regards to the players future and dissent is met with expulsion. Nice.

[cigar]

scorekeeper,

agreed 100%....

the players future is really none of the coaches business unless the player and/or family of player makes it his business....

with regards to the coaches responsibility to the player is to attempt to develop the player into the best person, team mate, player, discipline and to pass a long the list of interested parties that have contacted the coach in regards to the players.

the player also has responsbility to the coach and team. these responsibilities have to be presented to the players by the coach at the beginning of the season. if they are not the coach is the one that needs to man up and take the blame....

if a player violates it is the coaches responsibility to discipline, regardless of how high profile player is..

opinions have no place in these responsibilities, only facts.

[mulefarm]

Except for losing college eligibility, why are they only concered about losing players to the CHL? I would think they should also be concered about losing them to the USHL and Ann Arbor. With the strict HS league rules and policies, I think HS hockey will continue to loose the better players. It's too bad but, that is the trend.

[GoldenBear]

After reading article, I know who I will be cheering for tonight. Go Trojans.

[HockeyTalk18]

I would rather see kids going from MN H.S. Hockey to the next level regardless if it's Ann Arbor, USHL, Major Juniors, NCAA.

I would rather NOT see kids bounce from school to school of which he must be OK with since he has kids that went to Blake last year, how did that happen? and why is that ok?

[Bonehead]

No irony in the pic/caption eh?

[skiumah]

Apparently it's OK for Pauly to take from other programs (Armstrong, Minneapolis, etc) and make them weaker. But don't you dare take from BSM!

[Shinbone_News]

To acknowledge that KP is the head of the coach's association and then suggest that he shouldn't have an opinion about Canadian major juniors is just silly. Especially since he's also a coach/teacher at a college prep school.

If the MHSCA doesn't have a "mission" to sit around and argue about and write a position paper on, then what's the point of these coaches' associations anyway?

The USNTDP actually has a pay-back/buyout policy. If the WHL or any other Canadian major junior wants one of their players, they are free to go... but their parents are on the hook for about $50K. (Of course, the majors respond by paying that penalty on behalf of the player, but they have to want that player pretty badly. And most of the NTDP kids are college-minded kids anyway who have already passed on the opportunity to play major juniors.)

Maybe Minnesota High Schools will start demanding buyouts! (Probably not that far-fetched for the privates, if they're allegedly offering $40K-50K scholarships for three years of varsity hockey.)

[mulefarm]

To acknowledge that KP is the head of the coach's association and then suggest that he shouldn't have an opinion about Canadian major juniors is just silly. Especially since he's also a coach/teacher at a college prep school.

If the MHSCA doesn't have a "mission" to sit around and argue about and write a position paper on, then what's the point of these coaches' associations anyway?

The USNTDP actually has a pay-back/buyout policy. If the WHL or any other Canadian major junior wants one of their players, they are free to go... but their parents are on the hook for about $50K. (Of course, the majors respond by paying that penalty on behalf of the player, but they have to want that player pretty badly. And most of the NTDP kids are college-minded kids anyway who have already passed on the opportunity to play major juniors.)

Never heard of the buyout, but through the years many players have went the major junior route from ann arbor. Would be interested in seeing an accurate number on how many players left? As for college minded players, I would bet the majority of the ann arbor kids are thinking NHL.

[MrBoDangles]

hockey hub has reposted a detailed, well-written article in the Strib about the tension between WHL/Major Juniors and the MN high school hockey coaches association (and, indirectly, NCAA hockey). It focuses on Alec Baer's situation as the lead-in, but also touches on what others have faced (e.g. Bittner family).

Here's the link: http://www.mnhockeyhub.com/news_article ... r_id=32770

Ken Pauley is quoted on this top far more than I've ever seen before. He doesn't speak as the BSM coach, but as the head of the coach's association. Subtle enough difference?

Pauly said his decision to dismiss Baer "is related to Major Junior hockey" but declined to comment further because Baer remains a student.

Speaking as the president of the coaches' group, Pauly said: "A trip to a college is in keeping with the overall mission and vision of high school athletics. I don't believe the Major Junior and Minnesota high school model are complementary pieces."

I know there's an active thread on Juniors, but that's geared more towards a discussion of who is leaving to play spring hockey with NAHL/USHL teams. Most recent Alec Baer thread was locked.

Those words should be grounds for termination and Alec should have some money coming.

[The Exiled One]

Except for losing college eligibility, why are they only concered about losing players to the CHL? I would think they should also be concered about losing them to the USHL and Ann Arbor. With the strict HS league rules and policies, I think HS hockey will continue to loose the better players. It's too bad but, that is the trend.

I agree with this statement.

However, this statement is false...

Out of playing options, Baer signed with Vancouver on Feb. 15.

Baer still had plenty of playing options outside of Vancouver. How many BCHL, NAHL, USHL, or Midget Major programs would have loved to have him come mid-season?

[TheSiouxSuck]

Apparently it's OK for Pauly to take from other programs (Armstrong, Minneapolis, etc) and make them weaker. But don't you dare take from BSM!

I'm glad I'm not the only person who recognized that Irony. Could you imagine Pauly's outrage if Baer had wanted to check out a BSM game or attend one of the private schools hush hush recruiting "pizza parties" last year and Podes told him he was off the team if he did.

[D3Referee]

To acknowledge that KP is the head of the coach's association and then suggest that he shouldn't have an opinion about Canadian major juniors is just silly.

No one is suggesting he shouldn't have an opinion. The suggestion is that he shouldn't substitute HIS OPINION for that of the player/family. It's NOT his future.

[D3Referee]

hockey hub has reposted a detailed, well-written article in the Strib about the tension between WHL/Major Juniors and the MN high school hockey coaches association (and, indirectly, NCAA hockey). It focuses on Alec Baer's situation as the lead-in, but also touches on what others have faced (e.g. Bittner family).

Here's the link: http://www.mnhockeyhub.com/news_article ... r_id=32770

Ken Pauley is quoted on this top far more than I've ever seen before. He doesn't speak as the BSM coach, but as the head of the coach's association. Subtle enough difference?

Pauly said his decision to dismiss Baer "is related to Major Junior hockey" but declined to comment further because Baer remains a student.

Speaking as the president of the coaches' group, Pauly said: "A trip to a college is in keeping with the overall mission and vision of high school athletics. I don't believe the Major Junior and Minnesota high school model are complementary pieces."

I know there's an active thread on Juniors, but that's geared more towards a discussion of who is leaving to play spring hockey with NAHL/USHL teams. Most recent Alec Baer thread was locked.

Those words should be grounds for termination and Alec should have some money coming.

I agree. The family should be reimbursed this years tuition and both Pauley and the AD should serve some kind of suspension. Maybe not career ending, but something strong enough to deter them from this behavior in future.

[D3Referee]

However, this statement is false...

Out of playing options, Baer signed with Vancouver on Feb. 15.

Baer still had plenty of playing options outside of Vancouver. How many BCHL, NAHL, USHL, or Midget Major programs would have loved to have him come mid-season?

That statement is actually true. USA Hockey has a new rule this year forbidding NAHL and USHL teams (or any USA junior team) from playing 15 year olds without special permission (a lengthy process and not offered to Minnesota kids) - EVEN on an AP basis. Not to mention the roster deadline was February 10th for Juniors, and I believe (could be wrong on this), December 31 for U18/U16.

Likewise, in Canada, 15 year olds cannot play Junior A hockey (BCHL etc.) expet on an AP basis, and Alec wasn't on any of their AP lists.

[xy]

The thing that strikes me is this: I think it's entirely fair to infer, based on the article, that at least part of Pauly's motivation was to send a message to the Canadian junior leagues, as opposed to simply acting with the best interest of Benilde in mind. The problem with this is that one 15-year-old pays an awfully high price for getting caught in the middle of this turf war.

Maybe there's no way that can be avoided, and maybe it was made quite clear before he took the visit to Vancouver what would happen, in which case his case is a bit less sympathetic, but I find it troubling that the person impacted the most is the 15-year-old kid.

[Stick Save]

To acknowledge that KP is the head of the coach's association and then suggest that he shouldn't have an opinion about Canadian major juniors is just silly. Especially since he's also a coach/teacher at a college prep school.

If the MHSCA doesn't have a "mission" to sit around and argue about and write a position paper on, then what's the point of these coaches' associations anyway?

The USNTDP actually has a pay-back/buyout policy. If the WHL or any other Canadian major junior wants one of their players, they are free to go... but their parents are on the hook for about $50K. (Of course, the majors respond by paying that penalty on behalf of the player, but they have to want that player pretty badly. And most of the NTDP kids are college-minded kids anyway who have already passed on the opportunity to play major juniors.)

Maybe Minnesota High Schools will start demanding buyouts! (Probably not that far-fetched for the privates, if they're allegedly offering $40K-50K scholarships for three years of varsity hockey.)

You justify his right to his opinion, as I would agree with. Do you also justify his right to punish players in this extreme way, with no precident, or communication with his team as to what his "opinions" might be? Completely wreckless and abusive.

The article was very good as we finally heard from the Coach that this had nothing to do with a missed practice, or the timing of it.

The interesting part to me, is that the coach knew that Alec Baer was likely to return for at least one more season. The punishment, IMO, was to prevent what he felt others had done in the past. A paranoia that a player might come for one year, to win a state championship, and then leave.

Baer was told by Coach Pauly after this, that he could return next season to the team, "with no hard feelings on their part."

So when the boy realizes what has just happened to him, has difficulty in rejoining the team after it, and moves on? Then the coach can say, "See...I was right, another rat."

The WHL should send Coach Pauly a big fat check. Mission accomplished.

[D3Referee]

However, this statement is false...

Out of playing options, Baer signed with Vancouver on Feb. 15.

Baer still had plenty of playing options outside of Vancouver. How many BCHL, NAHL, USHL, or Midget Major programs would have loved to have him come mid-season?

That statement is actually true. USA Hockey has a new rule this year forbidding NAHL and USHL teams (or any USA junior team) from playing 15 year olds without special permission (a lengthy process and not offered to Minnesota kids) - EVEN on an AP basis. Not to mention the roster deadline was February 10th for Juniors, and I believe (could be wrong on this), December 31 for U18/U16.

Likewise, in Canada, 15 year olds cannot play Junior A hockey (BCHL etc.) expet on an AP basis, and Alec wasn't on any of their AP lists.

and here's the rule ...

USA HOCKEY ANNUAL GUIDE-- PAGE 155

C. Junior Age Players and Citizenship

Commencing with the 2012-13 playing season and each season thereafter, the Junior age group shall only include participants who are at least 16 years of age and no older than 20 years of age as of December 31 of the current playing season. Junior teams/leagues are to be divided into Tier I, Tier II, Tier III Junior Leagues, and Junior Independent Teams and provisional for any of the above classifications. Notwithstanding the above age limitations, players who are 15-years-old as of the 31st day of December of the current playing season may apply in writing to play Junior Hockey by submission of a petition from a league submitted to the USA Hockey Junior staff liaison with copies to the USA Hockey Junior Council Chair and Youth Council Chair, which petition shall be in conformity with current Junior tryout and selection rules and regulations and which shall include the record of achievement of the player and the physical attributes of the player. The application must be approved or denied by a majority vote of a committee comprised of the USA Hockey Junior Council chair (or his/her designee), the USA Hockey Youth Council chair (or his/her designee), and the USA Hockey Junior Council Staff liaison, along with the assistance and input of the senior staff of the hockey department at USA Hockey, which decision shall be final and not subject to appeal. No 15-year-old player may participate in any game of a Junior team unless and until a petition has been approved in conformance with this paragraph.


There have been a few petitions granted to kids in other states, but I have been told unnoficially by higher ups in USA Hockey that no petition will granted for Minnesota players due to the playing options available to high caliber Minnesota 15 year olds in the fall elite league and the spring Festivals/HPC's.

I find this rule especially discriminatory against Minnesota players, as other 15 year olds around the country are getting at least some opportunity in this regard and there have been many Minnesota 15 year olds in past who have tested the junior waters after the high school season is over.

This new rule, really leave 15 year old Minnesota players who wish to play Junior Hockey even AFTER their season is over NO ALTERNATIVE except the WHL.

Combine this with coach Pauley's actions and Alec had absolutely nowhere to turn but the WHL. Very sad.

[MNHockeyFan]

I'm in the minority here but I'm glad Pauly put his foot down and drew a line in the sand on this issue.

In a broader sense, if the trend of the most talented Minnesota kids jumping ship for greener pastures continues, we will be left with what in essence a big JV league. That would eventually make the game (and state tournament) a lot less attractive for me as a fan, and would cause me to lose interest and I'd probably non-renew my State Tournament tickets.

I have even more of a problem in a narrower sense when it comes to the major junior leagues. The NCAA has long recognized them as "professional" because the players are paid to play - big difference as compared to other junior leagues like the USHL, Ann Arbor, AAA hockey like SSM, etc. If you choose this route, you become totally focused on hockey and your goal is to someday make a living playing professional hockey, and hopefully in the NHL. As the article emphasized this is a completely different path than staying in high school and going the NCAA/D1 route - with maybe a year or two of juniors in between - and then maybe pro hockey if you turn out to be good enough. If not (as is the case for 95%+ of the players) you are enrolled in a college or university and well on the road toward completing your degree in a field of your choice. Again as the article points out the missions of these two approaches are completely different from one another, and I'm glad it's now totally out in the open. Even the WHL took notice as they will have to modify their approach when recruiting Minnesota kids.

I think it would be interesting to take a poll of the Minnesota coaches association to see how they line up on this issue. I suspect the vast majority side with Pauly's viewpoints and are behind him in the stand he's taken.

[D3Referee]

Pauly said his decision to dismiss Baer "is related to Major Junior hockey" but declined to comment further because Baer remains a student.

Speaking as the president of the coaches' group, Pauly said: "A trip to a college is in keeping with the overall mission and vision of high school athletics. I don't believe the Major Junior and Minnesota high school model are complementary pieces."

Those words should be grounds for termination and Alec should have some money coming.

I agree. The family should be reimbursed this years tuition and both Pauley and the AD should serve some kind of suspension. Maybe not career ending, but something strong enough to deter them from this behavior in future.

BSM should take a page out of the Mound-Westonka playbook and be big enough to admit when they have made a mistake.

[Stick Save]

Recruiting visits are expressely ALLOWED by the MNHSL during the season. This includes visits to a Major Junior team. So we are only dealing with the opinion of one coach.

This situation did involve a petition from Hockey Canada to USA Hockey. Normally a player's season must be over to join a CHL team, to prevent players from leaving their team mid-season. In this unique situation, the case was made that on technical grounds, Baer's season was over, through no fault of his own.

USA Hockey approved the petition on those grounds, thus allowing him to join the Vancouver Giants immediately, and not at the conclusion of BSM's season.

[D3Referee]

In a broader sense, if the trend of the most talented Minnesota kids jumping ship for greener pastures continues, we will be left with what in essence a big JV league. That would eventually make the game (and state tournament) a lot less attractive for me as a fan, and would cause me to lose interest and I'd probably non-renew my State Tournament tickets.

I think you are bang on here. That's why I think some consideration should be given to putting the privates in one section, so just one goes to the State Tournament. This would at least deter some of the trophy chasers and glory hounds from joining stacked all-star teams just to get to State. Maybe provide some incentive to stay home, lay with your buddies and represent your school.

I have even more of a problem in a narrower sense when it comes to the major junior leagues. The NCAA has long recognized them as "professional" because the players are paid to play - big difference as compared to other junior leagues like the USHL, Ann Arbor, AAA hockey like SSM, etc.

This is a soft argument IMO. It's not like WHL players get a living wage. They get an 80 dollar a week allowance, which is squat for a teenage boy living 1000 miles from home. They don't work (like they do in the NAHL /USHL - both OLDER leagues than the WHL) so they get a bit of spending money for incidentals. When you look at some of the appearance fees "amateur" athletes get, the hypocrisy begins to shine through.

If you choose this route (WHL) , you become totally focused on hockey and your goal is to someday make a living playing professional hockey, and hopefully in the NHL.

This is a popular misconception. WHL teams stress education and kids who fall behind in their schoolwork are held accountable. I know personally of a high profile player who was a healthy scratch one game and then demoted to the 4th line until he got his grades up. This is certainly a change from the old days, but ever since the CHL instituted it's scholarship program, grades are a focal point. Of course, every player dreams of playing in the NHL - WHL, USHL, NCAA or otherwise.

As the article emphasized this is a completely different path than staying in high school and going the NCAA/D1 route - with maybe a year or two of juniors in between - and then maybe pro hockey if you turn out to be good enough. If not (as is the case for 95%+ of the players) you are enrolled in a college or university and well on the road toward completing your degree in a field of your choice.

There is no difference between the two, except the WHL scjholarship is better for academically minded players. WHL players receive one year of university/college for each year they play. Not verbal partial commitments which can be rescinded, like the NCAA, but guaranteed school f the player opts to use it. Alec Baer will get 1 year of college tuition just for suiting up for the Giants this Friday. Even if that's his only game this year, he already has a guaranteed year of college in his back pocket. Further, he will get an additional year for every year he plays. He can cash that in at the University of Minnesota or any other similary priced institution of his CHOICE. If he makes the NHL - great! If not, he can focus on his studies without the distraction of hockey at the University of his choice.

Again as the article points out the missions of these two approaches are completely different from one another

The article doesn't. Pauley does. And he's wrong. All he is doing is perpetuation myths and fear-mongering to those kids who have good options.

Even the WHL took notice as they will have to modify their approach when recruiting Minnesota kids.

This is a real good stance they have taken. Very big of them I would say. I'd like to see BSM stand up as well.

I think it would be interesting to take a poll of the Minnesota coaches association to see how they line up on this issue. I suspect the vast majority side with Pauly's viewpoints.

Sure they would, but how many would take the Draconian action he took. I hope very few.

[Tigers33]

Expressly allowed to visit major junior Canadian teams. Really? It actually says that.

This family made a commitment to play at bsm this season!! Correct?? Then this family should have waited til the season was over to go visit. I am assuming they will still be playing in mid march. So after the bsm season has concluded a visit should be scheduled. End of conversation people!

Yes he wasn't making this choice but his parents and I guarantee an advisor were. Those are the people that need to start using their head. Advisors could care less about the kid, all they see is $$ signs.

[bemused]

Pauly said his decision to dismiss Baer "is related to Major Junior hockey" but declined to comment further because Baer remains a student.

Speaking as the president of the coaches' group, Pauly said: "A trip to a college is in keeping with the overall mission and vision of high school athletics. I don't believe the Major Junior and Minnesota high school model are complementary pieces."

So basically he feels comfortable substituting his opinion for the parents/player with regards to the players future and dissent is met with expulsion. Nice.

I agree, I wasn't aware Head Coach also meant Family Advisor.