Class A

[Puckguy19]

I don't care who the participants are, a state tournament should not involve games where the shot on goal margin is +/- 57. As a proponent of the one class tournament, I realize that is not coming back. Yet the premise of the two class tournament was to give schools a chance to compete against equal talent, and allow more students the state tournament "experience."

So assuming that two class if here to stay, at a minimum, maybe it is time for a third class. Double digit quarterfinals are not fun to watch, and I can't imagine the tournament "experience," is all that great either. This isn't a private/public argument, as I think seeds 3, 4 & 5 would have rolled easily as well.

When there is a systematic problem, so out of whack, it needs to be fixed. Not sure what the fix is, but continuing to do something, because we've always done it that way, is ridiculous.

[Tripod]

The two class system was created to allow more teams to compete. It worked for awhile, now we are back to most teams not having a chance at getting to St. Paul. Since 2000, only two public Class A schools have experienced a championship - Warroad (twice) and Hermantown (once).

[Roy01]

I'm not completely sure a one-tournament system is the solution either. If you look at the teams this year compared to last, it's about 50/50 in participation (half new, half returning). It's the same margin for NHL playoffs so I'd say the system works in that regard.

The issue comes with the teams that are returning being the same teams getting through every year (i.e. Breck, Hermantown, STA until next season). Ideally, if we could gauge where a team will be at the start of the season, you could move them according to make it competitive within the sections and the resulting state tournament. (Move up the strong A schools, move down the weak AA schools). Problem is, we can't do that...by enrollment and player ability. Now, if Roseau can play up I don't see why schools like Hermantown can't but I personally like there being a consistent small town being strong in the tourney. I think where the biggest issue arises is the obvious, the privates, but we're going to refrain from that...again...

If they seeded state 1-8 rather than 1-5 with a draw (as they say they do - up for debate of course ), the loss/shot margins would be greater.

Point being - There never will be an efficient way to gauge sections strength and as a result there will be blowouts and program monopolies.

[Rocketwrister]

Ok..here is the elephant in the room question; when is there going to be enough complaining, whining, etc so the MSHSL goes to a 3 class system?

I'm NOT in favor of this....I think it should go back to 1 OR a the very least go back to the Tier 1 and Tier 2 system.

[MNpuckBlog]

I'm not completely sure a one-tournament system is the solution either. If you look at the teams this year compared to last, it's about 50/50 in participation (half new, half returning). It's the same margin for NHL playoffs so I'd say the system works in that regard.

The issue comes with the teams that are returning being the same teams getting through every year (i.e. Breck, Hermantown, STA until next season). Ideally, if we could gauge where a team will be at the start of the season, you could move them according to make it competitive within the sections and the resulting state tournament. (Move up the strong A schools, move down the weak AA schools). Problem is, we can't do that...by enrollment and player ability. Now, if Roseau can play up I don't see why schools like Hermantown can't but I personally like there being a consistent small town being strong in the tourney. I think where the biggest issue arises is the obvious, the privates, but we're going to refrain from that...again...

If they seeded state 1-8 rather than 1-5 with a draw (as they say they do - up for debate of course ), the loss/shot margins would be greater.

Point being - There never will be an efficient way to gauge sections strength and as a result there will be blowouts and program monopolies.

It seems to me the issue should be more pressed on the Tier I/Tier II system. As there are small schools doing well every year, and big schools who struggle. I think that would level the playing field for Class A especially.

[roundhead]

The two class system was created to allow more teams to compete. It worked for awhile, now we are back to most teams not having a chance at getting to St. Paul. Since 2000, only two public Class A schools have experienced a championship - Warroad (twice) and Hermantown (once).

Grab the Clock, turnback time, Go back to 2000, Eliminate the Private Schools from Class A and things would be MUCH different.

THREE Classes:

Private
AA
A

[Lowstickside]

O.K., fine, I'll say it. 16 team tournament. that ends it.

[MNHighSchoolPuck]

Go back to 1 16 team tournament.

14 sections made up of public schools

2 sections made up of all the private and co opp schools from around the state.

[goldy313]

What's a 16 team tournament do?
Put Hill Murray against Apollo or Marshall?

How about the complaining then when Marshall or Lourdes makes it and Benilde or Minnetonka don't.

By the way, go back to a 16 team tournament? When did we ever have a 16 team tournament?

[Ready2GoYet]

Go back to 1 16 team tournament.

14 sections made up of public schools

2 sections made up of all the private and co opp schools from around the state.

I can see some support for this idea here, except I would hope we would not put the St. Peter/Le Sueur/Henderson etc. co-op, the Fairmont/Blue Earth Area/Truman etc. coop, and all the other similar co-ops in the same section as STA, H-M etc.?

I think at some point the population of the area of a school's location, not just the enrollment, needs to be factored in to the equation in determining the class of a school.

[rainier]

Go back to 1 16 team tournament.

14 sections made up of public schools

2 sections made up of all the private and co opp schools from around the state.

I can see some support for this idea here, except I would hope we would not put the St. Peter/Le Sueur/Henderson etc. co-op, the Fairmont/Blue Earth Area/Truman etc. coop, and all the other similar co-ops in the same section as STA, H-M etc.?

I think at some point the population of the area of a school's location, not just the enrollment, needs to be factored in to the equation in determining the class of a school.

Agree 100%.

[thestickler07]

So let's just have a northern and southern tournament then.

If being inside/outside of the metro is that big of an advantage the easy thing to do is let the northern schools play their tourney at Amsoil, and the metro can have theirs at the X.

[defense]

I think ya go back to one class. And if it makes you feel better do two tier. In them days I'm sure the section tournament meant a heckuvalot more, and it probly got put on as a bigger deal. What's wrong with a section title actually meaning a little more, getting to the final 8 or 4 in the section actually meaning something???

[HShockeywatcher]

How about this:
Class A is the bottom 64 schools by enrollment, public and private, and if a team opts up, then the next smallest in AA in dropped down?

The only private schools that would be left in Class A would be the ones that really aren't competing and we would end up with a tournament that is really what people seem to want. If certain good schools want to stay down, they can, but my guess is 6 out of the 8 teams in the Class A tournament now would opt up.

You could have Class A at a different venue as well, so they wouldn't play in an empty arena.

[eastsideguy]

Go back to 1 16 team tournament.

14 sections made up of public schools

2 sections made up of all the private and co opp schools from around the state.

I can see some support for this idea here, except I would hope we would not put the St. Peter/Le Sueur/Henderson etc. co-op, the Fairmont/Blue Earth Area/Truman etc. coop, and all the other similar co-ops in the same section as STA, H-M etc.?

I think at some point the population of the area of a school's location, not just the enrollment, needs to be factored in to the equation in determining the class of a school.

Agree 100%.

you can't have it both ways.... in the other thread you stated schools like providence, spa, Blake , etc... should stay in class a until they have success. Which is it.....success or population.

[TheSiouxSuck]

The two class tournament was designed to allow more kids the experience but its to also grow the game. You want to stop rampant recruiting? Kids leaving HS hockey for juniors or the NDTP? GROW THE GAME. New Ulm made the tourney 3 years in a row after an 18 year hiatus and as a result their Youth numbers jumped. I'm sure Marshall and Apollo will have a boost in numbers as well.

If you're sick of seeing double digit scores the first day of the tournament, tell the MSHSL to STOP the seeding! Go back and look at scores from the 90's and early 00's. Then go look at scores since they began seeding. The average goal differential jumped quite noticeably. Not only are the game since seeding began usually lopsided, they're boring! My fear is its going to kill attendance for the first two days of the tournament. Look at Simley in 2003, if there were seeding they'd have most likely been an "unseeded" team and probably have gotten killed in the first round. Instead they got a favorable matchup, squeaked out an OT win in the quarterfinals and rode that momentum to a very entertaining championship game against Warroad. Once a team gets hot, anything can happen and I feel like all the seeding does is minimize any chance for a Cinderella run. If you're going to Win state, you're supposed to be the best right? Well if you're Breck and you draw STA in the 1st round you essentially had to get past them anyways to win the whole thing, so does it really matter when you play them?

The argument that this makes for a more competitive championship game is blah. BSM 5-1 over HM? STA over Hermantown by the same score? Doesnt seem to be working.

[rainier]

I can see some support for this idea here, except I would hope we would not put the St. Peter/Le Sueur/Henderson etc. co-op, the Fairmont/Blue Earth Area/Truman etc. coop, and all the other similar co-ops in the same section as STA, H-M etc.?

I think at some point the population of the area of a school's location, not just the enrollment, needs to be factored in to the equation in determining the class of a school.

Agree 100%.

you can't have it both ways.... in the other thread you stated schools like providence, spa, Blake , etc... should stay in class a until they have success. Which is it.....success or population.

Really? You don't see the distinction here?

Listen close...

On the other thread I'm saying that's the way it should work given the current system.

This one is a hypothetical with a whole new way of classification.

It's not "having it both ways" when the two choices are mutually exclusive.

I will refrain from making a joke about the cost of your education and the infrequency with which you use it.

[HShockeywatcher]

The two class tournament was designed to allow more kids the experience but its to also grow the game. You want to stop rampant recruiting? Kids leaving HS hockey for juniors or the NDTP? GROW THE GAME. New Ulm made the tourney 3 years in a row after an 18 year hiatus and as a result their Youth numbers jumped. I'm sure Marshall and Apollo will have a boost in numbers as well.

If you're sick of seeing double digit scores the first day of the tournament, tell the MSHSL to STOP the seeding! Go back and look at scores from the 90's and early 00's. Then go look at scores since they began seeding. The average goal differential jumped quite noticeably. Not only are the game since seeding began usually lopsided, they're boring! My fear is its going to kill attendance for the first two days of the tournament. Look at Simley in 2003, if there were seeding they'd have most likely been an "unseeded" team and probably have gotten killed in the first round. Instead they got a favorable matchup, squeaked out an OT win in the quarterfinals and rode that momentum to a very entertaining championship game against Warroad. Once a team gets hot, anything can happen and I feel like all the seeding does is minimize any chance for a Cinderella run. If you're going to Win state, you're supposed to be the best right? Well if you're Breck and you draw STA in the 1st round you essentially had to get past them anyways to win the whole thing, so does it really matter when you play them?

The argument that this makes for a more competitive championship game is blah. BSM 5-1 over HM? STA over Hermantown by the same score? Doesnt seem to be working.

I don't disagree with the premise of your post, but the issue [imo] is that there is multiple trophies.
If you're going to just give a trophy to the champion, then it doesn't really matter who they beat when, but if you're going to have a consolation bracket, along with 2nd and 3rd places, it doesn't make much sense to have the second best team in the consolation bracket.

As to the rest of your post, you're likely right, that the not seeding was better for the game as a whole.

[eastsideguy]

Agree 100%.

you can't have it both ways.... in the other thread you stated schools like providence, spa, Blake , etc... should stay in class a until they have success. Which is it.....success or population.

Really? You don't see the distinction here?

Listen close...

On the other thread I'm saying that's the way it should work given the current system.

This one is a hypothetical with a whole new way of classification.

It's not "having it both ways" when the two choices are mutually exclusive.

I will refrain from making a joke about the cost of your education and the infrequency with which you use it.

Just trying to understand your point of view...do I have it right....in your hypothetical new classification, providence, blake, spa, etc...should play at the highest level because they can draw from the entire metro population, but not now under the current format because there not very good?

[Red Ice]

1 State Tourney. We (Minnesota) should strive for the BEST high school hockey tournament.
Make the section championships more important. 8 sections winners seeded 1-8.
More teams in tourney. Great. Have all the teams that lost section finals host or at section final arena play the 8 highest ranked teams left. Some thought given to distance, etc.

Section tournaments would be awesome and we would end up with 1 true state champion.

Tier I and Tier II is the only "good?" way to get teams that would normally not get much of a chance to get to state.

[rainier]

you can't have it both ways.... in the other thread you stated schools like providence, spa, Blake , etc... should stay in class a until they have success. Which is it.....success or population.

Really? You don't see the distinction here?

Listen close...

On the other thread I'm saying that's the way it should work given the current system.

This one is a hypothetical with a whole new way of classification.

It's not "having it both ways" when the two choices are mutually exclusive.

I will refrain from making a joke about the cost of your education and the infrequency with which you use it.

Just trying to understand your point of view...do I have it right....in your hypothetical new classification, providence, blake, spa, etc...should play at the highest level because they can draw from the entire metro population, but not now under the current format because there not very good?

Yep. Under the hypothetical system, they would have no choice. As the system stands now, they have a choice, and until they build up to an AA level, then I see no reason to force them up.

Under the hypothetical system, a team like SPA could petition to opt down, which I believe already is allowed for some schools. Then an official or a committee of coaches could decide if the opt down is allowed, bringing in the human judgement part that a lot of you guys refuse to allow into the equation.

[TheSiouxSuck]

1 State Tourney. We (Minnesota) should strive for the BEST high school hockey tournament.
Make the section championships more important. 8 sections winners seeded 1-8.
More teams in tourney. Great. Have all the teams that lost section finals host or at section final arena play the 8 highest ranked teams left. Some thought given to distance, etc.

Section tournaments would be awesome and we would end up with 1 true state champion.

Tier I and Tier II is the only "good?" way to get teams that would normally not get much of a chance to get to state.

I completely disagree. I think going back to 1 state tourney with only 8 teams would be detrimental to the game. Say you're a 15 year old talented player for a smaller school without a whole lot of hockey success. All of a sudden there are now only 8 spots in the tournament? Only 8 teams get that type of exposure? All of a sudden you get an invite to attend a Holy Angels (circa early 2000's) game and a pizza party. You mean that coach and he tells you that you're a special player and what a great experience playing in the tournament is, he then tells you how awesome his summer camp is, which you attend. All of a sudden you're feeling pretty comfortable jumping ship because everyone has the perceived notion that those who play in the tournament get the most exposure.

Its already a giant mess with kids jumping schools left and right trying to get on the right team to make the show. You want to cut those spots in half? To me this is only going to lead to more player movement and associations like Prior Lake, Chanhassen, Chaska, St. Michael, and Woodbury are just going to continue to be feeder programs for the Hill Murray's, BSM's, and STAs.

[Zamman]

How about we just give all the teams a trophy and medals and move on???
Nothing will change the format right now. Live with it...

[Ogie]