Tier 1 and 2 Format

[Joe2015]

I'm a little too young to remember the 2-year Tier 1 and 2 experiment. Could someone explain why it was such a failure?

Wouldn't this type of system (dividing the classes by merit and not by enrollment) solve the Hermantown issue? They wouldn't have a choice but to play up as they would easily be in the top half of section 7.

[zooomx]

I'm a little too young to remember the 2-year Tier 1 and 2 experiment. Could someone explain why it was such a failure?

Wouldn't this type of system (dividing the classes by merit and not by enrollment) solve the Hermantown issue? They wouldn't have a choice but to play up as they would easily be in the top half of section 7.

Because....

https://www.twincities.com/2012/03/06/s ... two-tiers/

[zooomx]

Our system is fine. If I was going to tweak it, I would put all privates that play A in one section, and if they go to state for 4 years running they get bumped up to AA. Not much else you can do that would not negatively impact the innocent.

[wbmd]

I'm a little too young to remember the 2-year Tier 1 and 2 experiment. Could someone explain why it was such a failure?

Wouldn't this type of system (dividing the classes by merit and not by enrollment) solve the Hermantown issue? They wouldn't have a choice but to play up as they would easily be in the top half of section 7.

Because....

https://www.twincities.com/2012/03/06/s ... two-tiers/

Except that Jeff Antonovich never starred at UMD. He played one game and left after his freshman season.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdis ... ?pid=18356

[Stang5280]

I'm a little too young to remember the 2-year Tier 1 and 2 experiment. Could someone explain why it was such a failure?

Wouldn't this type of system (dividing the classes by merit and not by enrollment) solve the Hermantown issue? They wouldn't have a choice but to play up as they would easily be in the top half of section 7.

Basically, no one cared about the Tier 2 tournament outside of the fan bases involved, as it was vastly inferior hockey. Attendance and TV ratings were far below the Tier 1 tourney. I recall reading an article about how the champion of the first Tier 2 tournament, Greenway, essentially refuses to acknowledge it as a real honor and views it as a participation trophy. They were more peeved about falling out of the top eight teams in their section and not having a chance to play for the “real” championship. Also, the 1992 final featured Greenway against a Rosemount team that won a grand total of ONE regular season game before facing weaker, small schools in the Tier 2 playoffs. I just found the article I was thinking of, and here is a link. (Edit: I see that someone already beat me to posting that article above.)

The current system may not be perfect, but it is far preferable to the two-tier experiment that flamed out after only two years. Class A at least features some talented teams and players, and doesn’t cheapen the experience of playing in the state tournament.

[greenwayraider]

The Greenway program and its fans swallowed a bitter pill when relegated to Tier II. They have pride and look to achieve at the highest level. The next year, initially, Greenway was ranked 9th with Hermantown ranked 8th. There was some behind the scene manuevering as Hermantown wanted to play in Tier II and Greenway wanted to play in Tier I. Ultimately that is what happened. Explains a lot about the mentality of Hermantown hockey even today.

[Stang5280]

Our system is fine. If I was going to tweak it, I would put all privates that play A in one section, and if they go to state for 4 years running they get bumped up to AA. Not much else you can do that would not negatively impact the innocent.

While I agree that certain private schools in Class A have been problematic - including my alma mater, Breck - I don’t think it is fair to paint all private schools with the same brush. Should teams like Providence Academy or Minnehaha Academy be punished because of the success of others?

Besides, many of the private school issues have worked themselves out over time. Duluth Marshall and Blake have moved up to AA (as did BSM and STA previously), Rochester Lourdes has fallen off dramatically, SPA had their brief moment in the sun, and Breck looks to be declining out of relevancy. That basically leaves St. Cloud Cathedral as the last remaining private school powerhouse in Class A for now. What have they done at state over the years? Basically nothing.

I also think that if you treat the private schools too harshly, you run the risk of alienating them to the point where they may be motivated to create their own league and withdraw from the MSHSL. You could then end up with a situation like that of New England, where the prep schools have sucked away nearly all of the high end hockey talent. I don’t think anyone wanted to see that model happen in Minnesota.

[zooomx]

Our system is fine. If I was going to tweak it, I would put all privates that play A in one section, and if they go to state for 4 years running they get bumped up to AA. Not much else you can do that would not negatively impact the innocent.

While I agree that certain private schools in Class A have been problematic - including my alma mater, Breck - I don’t think it is fair to paint all private schools with the same brush. Should teams like Providence Academy or Minnehaha Academy be punished because of the success of others?

Besides, many of the private school issues have worked themselves out over time. Duluth Marshall and Blake have moved up to AA (as did BSM and STA previously), Rochester Lourdes has fallen off dramatically, SPA had their brief moment in the sun, and Breck looks to be declining out of relevancy. That basically leaves St. Cloud Cathedral as the last remaining private school powerhouse in Class A for now. What have they done at state over the years? Basically nothing.

I also think that if you treat the private schools too harshly, you run the risk of alienating them to the point where they may be motivated to create their own league and withdraw from the MSHSL. You could then end up with a situation like that of New England, where the prep schools have sucked away nearly all of the high end hockey talent. I don’t think anyone wanted to see that model happen in Minnesota.

Fair enough, and good points. Very complex issues with the privates and you are right that you don't necessarily want to punish those other schools. It would make it a lot easier if those private and public schools that are working so hard to build powerhouses would just go AA and then all would be less murky.

[O-townClown]

Because....

https://www.twincities.com/2012/03/06/s ... two-tiers/

Very good article. Thanks for sharing.

[Joe2015]

So why not divide the section into Tiers before the season?

[zooomx]

So why not divide the section into Tiers before the season?

So what is your point? That we need the weaker AA teams to have a shot at a trophy? That a mediocre A team needs a shot at a trophy? What is YOUR angle? IMO, a trip to state should be the result of a remarkable season. In a two Tier situation we are rewarding what? You would still have sub .500 teams going to state and winning. It was the worst idea back then and would be equally horrible now, not matter how you spit shine it.

[zooomx]

Just for the heck of it, I pulled up the final rankings this season. There are 150 teams listed. A potential top 5 of Tier II would include 8-15-2 Totino Grace and 4-21 Roseville. Yeah, let's have a two tier system. Yawnnnn.

[Schotzy]

There will always be the sandbaggers, and that is unfortunate.

I would be interested to see some sort of relegation format. Something that moves, as an example, the top 10-teams from A to AA, and the bottom 10-teams from AA to A at the conclusion of every season. Rankings not necessarily dependent on making it to, or the result of the state tournament, but regular season record and SOS. So a team like Hermantown today, or STA a few years back, would be forced to play with the AA teams, and a bigger school in AA, that maybe is not able to compete at that level, gets a shot to prove themselves.

I think this would be way too much work for MSHSL in terms of ranking system and section playoff alignment, way to many people would complain, and there would always be some program finding a way to mess with the process.

All-in-all, I like the current system. I miss single class, but I am an old traditionalist. The Tiered system was absolutely horrible.

[Slap Shot]

So why not divide the section into Tiers before the season?

So what is your point? That we need the weaker AA teams to have a shot at a trophy? That a mediocre A team needs a shot at a trophy? What is YOUR angle? IMO, a trip to state should be the result of a remarkable season. In a two Tier situation we are rewarding what? You would still have sub .500 teams going to state and winning. It was the worst idea back then and would be equally horrible now, not matter how you spit shine it.

I think what he's suggesting is that teams would be placed into Tier 1 & 2 at the end of the state tournament and before schedules are created. Then (assuming again) Tier 2 teams would be forced to scheduled only Tier 2 teams during the season except for conference play. In that sense Tier 2 wouldn't be filled with mostly teams with losing records (because of H2H results within the tier) and it would look nicer on paper.

I could be mis-speaking and I'm not defending the strategy - just giving my interpretation.

[Joe2015]

I guess what I don't get is that there are numerous threads about teams like Hermantown, whom the vast majority of people want to move up. And you go over to the girls thread, and people are complaining saying Breck and Warroad should move up. And why do people want them to move up? Because you want to see the best teams playing in AA.

Well we had a system that forced the best teams to play up. But then everyone complained about it.

So my question: if all the best Class A teams moved up (like everyone wants them to), wouldn't that essentially be a Tier 1/2 system in all but name?

[elliott70]

I guess what I don't get is that there are numerous threads about teams like Hermantown, whom the vast majority of people want to move up. And you go over to the girls thread, and people are complaining saying Breck and Warroad should move up. And why do people want them to move up? Because you want to see the best teams playing in AA.

Well we had a system that forced the best teams to play up. But then everyone complained about it.

So my question: if all the best Class A teams moved up (like everyone wants them to), wouldn't that essentially be a Tier 1/2 system in all but name?

Yes, but no.
Only the teams in their teams way should move up.

Believe me, Tier 2 hockey was not good.
There is no perfect way.
What we have now is fine.
Hermantown will eventually move up or lose.
Demographics will change, top teams will fade and new ones take their place.
Enjoy watching good hockey in AA and decent hockey in the A semis.
And that to will change.

Go Jacks Go Broncos, Go Rams, Go Hawks (and soon some other 7A team)

[zooomx]

I guess what I don't get is that there are numerous threads about teams like Hermantown, whom the vast majority of people want to move up. And you go over to the girls thread, and people are complaining saying Breck and Warroad should move up. And why do people want them to move up? Because you want to see the best teams playing in AA.

Well we had a system that forced the best teams to play up. But then everyone complained about it.

So my question: if all the best Class A teams moved up (like everyone wants them to), wouldn't that essentially be a Tier 1/2 system in all but name?

I don't think it's a vast majority, and I have always argued that as soon as the best A team moves up someone will complain about the next best. It is pretty darn good as it is. On the girls side, Warroad is up and down and has not won it all much. Breck is getting their chance, but there are a handful of teams who can beat them.

I like the system the way it is because in some areas you have multiple teams in A and AA each section that are quality contenders.

I personally don't want a state tournament for the weakest 75 teams in the state like Tier II would give us.

[Stang5280]

I guess what I don't get is that there are numerous threads about teams like Hermantown, whom the vast majority of people want to move up. And you go over to the girls thread, and people are complaining saying Breck and Warroad should move up. And why do people want them to move up? Because you want to see the best teams playing in AA.

Well we had a system that forced the best teams to play up. But then everyone complained about it.

So my question: if all the best Class A teams moved up (like everyone wants them to), wouldn't that essentially be a Tier 1/2 system in all but name?

I don’t think anyone wants to see all of the best Class A teams opt up to AA. Rather, there is a specifically focused animosity toward Hermantown that essentially boils down to two factors.

1. HT operates as an A program in name only. Their youth teams compete at the AA level, and usually fare quite well. The high school program plays a schedule heavily loaded with AA opponents and also wins a high percentage of those games (HT beat the AA champion during each of the past two regular seasons). Then they romp through the 7A playoffs into state every year, where they often aren’t tested until the finals.

2. Bruce Plante was extremely vocal about private schools, particularly STA, dominating Class A and how HT did things the “right” way. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, and the Hawks have been to eight straight finals and won the last two championships, that talk starts to sound rather hypocritical. (In the meantime, STA did opt up, HT soundly defeated Breck in a final, and lost two others to a special group from EGF, so Plante had to bite his tongue a bit.)

As a Breck fan and alumnus I probably don’t have much room to criticize, either, but I wanted to summarize the Hermantown issue specifically. And as I pointed out above, the private school domination at the A level appears to be waning.