Bantam A vs. High School?

[RLStars]

What do you think would be better developmentally, playing Bantam A or JV\Varsity?<br><br>What we're talking about here is an associations top bantam players, Would they be better off staying on the Bantam A or trying out for the HS Varsity team? We're not talking about a Bantam team in the top twenty in the state, more like the bottom twenty.<br><br>Here's the scenarios:<br><br>1 He makes Varsity third line and plays quite a bit unless its a close game and the coach shortens the bench.<br><br>2 He makes the forth line and barely plays.<br><br>3 He's the top two lines on JV<br><br>4 He's a third or forth liner on JV<br><br>5 Play his second year Bantam, be the top player on a bad team. <p></p><i></i>

[Eddie Shore]

To me, the only option that makes sense is if he is playing top three lines on the varsity. As a coach, I wouldn't pull a kid up unless he is going to see significant varsity time. <br><br>I don't see the point in toiling away on a bad JV team with kids that are never going to play a large role at the varsity level. I don't know what your coaching situation is, but in weaker programs your JV coaching can be very questionable as well.<br><br>This is just my opinion, but if a kid isn't going to play varsity, let him log a ton of time at the Bantam level and be a leader - even on a bad team. <p></p><i></i>

[puckhead63]

I have to agree with Eddie Shore.<br><br>If the player is a lock at the top 3 lines on Varsity - go for it, otherwise, stay in Bantams.<br><br>Your Bantam A team will play more games, should practice more and if they can play against some of the top Bantam A teams in the state - the quality of play will be pretty close to the JV level.<br><br>I can't recall a player that didn't develop because he stayed down for his last year of Bantams.<br><br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[2AhockeyOldTimer]

I was a player who had to make the choice of high school varsity or Bantam A. I think you should play Bantams all the way through. You have a chance to play against many, many Junior, D1, professional prospects. In Bantam As I played against the Moorhead boys like Lee, Ammerman, Vandy...The Warroad Boys, Brodeen, Hardwick, Olimb (oshie wasnt around then)....and not to mention Phil Kessel.<br><br>If you are a class A kid (which I was) I would recommend staying at Bantams. If you are a AA player (Varsity 3rd line or better) I recommend playing up. <p>2A</p><i></i>

[bdabbt75]

interesting. I can give you an example where someone who played _2_ years of JV at a class A school, and ended up this year playing regular shifts in the NCAA frozen four (Brunkhorst - Lourdes - Colorado College). <br><br>I would say who you practice against is more important than who you play against. Actually, you played against 8th and 9th grade bantams... You practice hours a week, and you play against someone minutes a year. Practising against HS sophmores juniors and seniors as a 9th grader may be an advantage you are discounting.<br><br>If I were a parent, I would advise playing the kid where he will have the best role models, a positive experience, and the least impact on his school and family life. If the kid is destined for hockey greatness, his drive will let him succeed at any level. <p></p><i></i>

[RLStars]

Great comments fellas, I appreciate them all and hope to get more.<br><br>2A, we're from your area and do play class AA at high school. My son plays quite a bit with some St. Cloud kids in spring and fall leagues as well as an STP program that was put on by your old coach. He also plays AAA hockey on a pretty good 91 team.<br> <p></p><i></i>

[topshelf11]

I think that most second years should play Bantams, unless the player is going to be on the top three lines on varsity and is physically ready. But that I mean grown. It doesn't make sense to send a 5'5 125 pound freshmen out there, only to get beat up by upperclassmen. To me, playing two years of Bantam A was an experience I will never forget. You get to play much more games in Bantams, usually altleast 40 games compared to 25 games in high school. Plus, most of the best players from the top associations will be playing on their Bantam A teams. Overall, I do not see the point in rushing up to the Varsity level. <p></p><i></i>

[hockeydad]

After years of kids moving up from association hockey as freshmen to play JV, our new coach started a policy a couple years ago that freshmen wiht Bantam eligibility left had to be top three lines of varsity after tryouts or they woudl be cut (thus sending them back to bantams). <br><br>It really makes a lot more sense. A few years ago in our association, we had just enough for three bantam teams when a freshman whose dad thougth he was a superstar didn't make A team. He pulled his kid and sent him to play JV. A couple of other kids dropped out and we ended up with one B team with 20 players...not good. <br><br>Oh, and the "superstar?" As a sophomore he played a couple shifts on varsity early in the season, the rest on JV, and quit before Christmas. <p></p><i></i>

[mnrookie21]

it sounds like this is the million dollar question for kids with bantam eligibility that might have the talent to play high school hockey. i don't know what the answer is, but i'm sure every situation is a little different. some things to weigh while in the process of making the decision:<br>1. quality of bantam program. if the program is a good one, staying in bantams won't hurt anybody. gives the kids another year to grow (mentally and physically). if the program leaves something to be desired, it might be best for the kid to move up. it's the old "big fish, little pond" theory. in many programs, if kids want to move up, it has a nasty trickle down effect in the youth ranks (particularly the programs that don't have large numbers... which, ironically, are typically the programs that have this problem).<br>2. quality of high school program. if the high school program is decent, chances are slim that many bantam-age kids can even crack the roster. lots of high school coaches won't let kids move up unless they're gonna make the top three lines on the varsity team. if the high school program isn't very strong, and the kid has a chance to make the varsity, it might be a decent move for the kid. assuming the coaching staff at the high school level will work to develop the younger kids. the level of competition during practice alone is better than he'll see all year at the bantam level.<br><br>there are so many things that come into play and deserve consideration, that it is almost overwhelming. is it fair to a junior or a senior to get cut for a freshman that has bantam eligibility? no... but it might be the best thing for a high school program in the long term. many high school coaches are under pressure to put a winning team on the ice, and don't have the luxury of developing for a year or two down the road.<br><br>i think that if a kid can make the varsity, move up. if he is only a jv player, another year of bantams would be the best for everybody involved. just an opinion...<br> <p></p><i></i>

[bdabbt75]

the following is off topic however, it expands the issue away from the player to the program<br><br>The timing of this wouldn't work for Rochester... Their bantam tryouts are in October... and MSHSL mandates that tryouts for HS teams begin (usually) in November, and I would assume that a player that moves 'down' to bantams would end up in the house league (heaven help the kid/parents/coach that causes some other kids to get 'bumped' off an A Team after tryouts).<br><br>I have mixed feelings for a Hockey coach to take a freshman (someone who is officially in HS and should get all rights of a HS player), and 'cut' them off the JV team if they aren't good enough to be a producing player on varsity (with the assumption that the player is better than most of the remaining JV players). That kid is a HS student, and there should be NO relationship between the youth program and the HS program, and the athletic dept should make every effort encourage participation in _its_ athletic programs.<br><br>Of course I also have mixed feelings about that same freshman player causing a senior to get 'cut' from the varsity to make room for the freshman on 4th (or 3rd) lines.... Unless the kid is a difference maker, the paid his dies Senior should get a chance to 'earn his varsity letter'.<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

[oldschool]

Unless there is a lock to be a varsity regular, stay in bantams, i agree with whoever said that. Remember also that (this was the rule a few years ago and I didn't see it changing), the second a player steps on high school ice, they can no longer play in the youth level, so trying out for the varsity team without knowing and risking seeing a lot of bench time would not be worht it to me when I could play regularly in 40-50 games.....instead of watching 20 or getting limited tiem...<br>a good varsity coach, or any varsity coach worth anything should be able to make this call, and if he is not readily sure that this player is varsity material, I wouldn't do it.. Now, that is great, but, he cannot hold any varsity elidgable player out of tryouts, so in the end it is up to you.....like I said, unless he is positive that the player will impact the varsity team, might as well play a little more hockey with the friends instead of being dissapointed..................whatever happens, do not quit............. <p></p><i></i>

[hockeydad]

Typically in our association, kids intending to try out for HS program still go through bantam tryouts and even play a couple games with bantams until HS season tryouts start. Then, if they make the HS team, they drop out of the bantam program and get a partial refund on their fees. the roster gets adjusted (final Minnesota hockey rosters dont' have to be in until the end of November, I believe). From what I've heard, this is the situation in several other associations. <p></p><i></i>

[MNPuckster40]

My son made his Varsity HS team as a Freshman and would have received significant playing time, but opted to play Bantams with his friends. Looking back on the decision as a college age player he is convinced that was one of the best choices he ever made. Spending that season with his friends strengthened their bond significantly. They weren't the best team ever, but they did make it to a regional tournament - something the team probably wouldn't have been able to do if he hadn't stayed back with them. If you ask him today what is more important - playing quality hockey or developing quality friendships - while both would be great, the friendships are what is most important to him today. <p></p><i></i>

[goldy313]

My son played JV as a freshman simply because economically I couldn't spend the 3-5 grand a season of VFW would have cost me. <br><br>Lessons I learned on the down side include: Getting a kid to 6am practice once a week, though painful, is much easier than getting him to a 3pm practice 3-4 times a week (9th graders are at a different school here). He didn't really know anyone when the year started though he made friends and did have some upper class friends when he became a sophomore. The difference in size and strength between a junior and a freshman is staggering. Though a good hockey player he had never been hit with anything near the force he did in just his first scrimmage. Tough thing to see as a parent, your kid becoming one with the glass. As a freshman you're a small fish in a big pond socially, physically, emotionally, and it's tough to not feel alone. <br><br>On the positive side: There is more control and balance between academics and athletics with a high school program. The coach was constantly checking on his grades, attendance and such. He practiced and played against a higher level competition than he would of even at the VFW level though the number of games was probably 40 or so less. A stable schedule, it's easier for everyone in the family to balance life around a high school schedule than a VFW one. Of course price, it was $80 to play high school, add gas and I probably spent $200 for a year of hockey (less than my supermite). For whatever reason, I don't think he enjoyed playing the high stress world of VFW hockey as an 8th grader as much as he did the lower stress JV hockey he played as a ninth grader. <br><br>In the end he missed playing with his friends, but made new ones. By the time he graduated half of his VFW team was out of hockey due to burn out, grades, substance problems, or other reasons. So I don't think hockey wise it hindered his development at all. <p></p><i></i>

[packerboy]

goldy, I agree with you except the part about it being easier to balance life around a high school schedule. <br><br>I suppose it depends on the association you are in and what you prefer but where I come from Bantams practice most of the time at 9:00PM on the weeknights. Some people shutter at that but I love it. They get home from school, have plenty of time to do homework, eat supper with the family, and later go to pratice. One of us or is always around to get him there. <br><br>It gets a little late but they dont go to bed until 10:30 a or later at that age anyway. Getting a freshman(or sophmore for that matter until they get their license) to a JV practice right after school and home after can be a pain. <br><br>If both parents are working and/or there are other hockey players in the family, its tough to get to some of the JV games since they are usually before the varsity and can start around 5:00 or so. <br><br>Bantam games are almost always in the evening on the weeknights and usualy after 8:00. <br><br>I actaually prefer the Bantam schedule until they get their license. <p></p><i></i>

[BNTL]

To me i think it would be easier to practice in the mornings like they do up north. Pee Wee thru Bantams practice at 630 i think in Roso. <p></p><i></i>

[bdabbt75]

In Rochester, the Squirts and Peewees practice at 5:30am in the morning (junior high starts at 8:00, so ending at 7:30 is too late for most kids). Bantams often practice until 10:30 at night.<br><br>I would say that HS/JV practice after school is best for life impact. JV players can carpool to the rink (one parent, or if you trust a 16yo driving your 14yo to practice), and then get picked up by parents after practice, but depending on your school/town YMMV.<br> <p></p><i></i>

[hawksfan1964]

First off, you don't have to be in a lower level program to have the problem with pulling kids up to high school early. I see a program in this area that has probably the the most quantity of hockey players, and quality hockey players, and they are pulling kids up every year. Duluth East is notorious for pulling up 9th and even 8th graders. We are lucky in Hermantown, our kids follow the path they should. 2 yrs. of pw, 2 yrs. of bant. 3 yrs. of hs. But I think the problem is this: Coaches are afraid to say "go play bantams" because if they don't take the player in, the parent could move them somewhere else. But if you set a precident in your community that sr., jr., and sophs, in that order get the benefit of the doubt you not only give your chance to find some late blooming diamonds in the rough, you also give continuity to your youth program. Moorehead, and Centennial are two other programs that you don't see to many freshmen or below on their varsity rosters, and arguably the two best programs right now in the state. <br><br>Long story longer, unless you are going to step in and be a standout on the varsity team, play bantams... And if you move up to play JV hockey with bantam elig. left, you are an idiot. Unless the bantam coach is an idiot. Because yes there are exceptions to every rule.<br><br><br><br>GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!! <p></p><i></i>

[RLStars]

Hawksfan, High school coaches can not tell a 9th grader to stay at Bantams. Ninth grade IS high school age and therefor a 9th grader can tryout for the team. What I believe he can do is tell those players that they will NOT get playing time or may even be cut due to a numbers issue.<br><br>In our case, we are possibly looking at 38 skaters for two Bantam teams. That means sharing shifts with at least three lines who will be played equally. This player is top three Bantam that has a slight chance at top three lines on varsity or first line JV.<br><br>Heres the question;<br><br>Is it developmentally better to be the top Bantam player on a heavy rostered below average to poor Bantam A team, or possibly play Varsity or at least top lines at JV? <p></p><i></i>

[sjubum]

Great question, RLStars. I'm thinking that there are other teams around the state that face this very situation from time to time. I'm also interested in what others have to say on this topic.<br><br>My gut says that it would be better for the top player(s) to make the high school team...<br><br>(Does the youth association make cuts at the bantam level?) <p></p><i></i>

[oldmanhockey]

As a high school coach and also a parent of 4 kids who all played youth and high school hockey, I am once again torn between the coach/parent on this issue. My kids all played their two years of Bantams and 3 years of High School. Worked out great for them. As a parent it was tough on the budget (all 4 playing youth at the same time) and carting them around to different arenas, but I believe they made lasting friendships and avoided the "evils" of juniors and seniors preying on 8th and 9th graders. All 4 had opportunities to play College hockey and chose not to, instead making stronger academic efforts or taking on working careers. As a parent, I couldn't be happier with their choices.<br> As a high school coach, a different story. As a coach I want the best available talent whether they be 7th, 8th, 9th or 10-12th. Youth hockey cannot match the practice hours of the high school program 10-12 hours per week, plus strength training plus 2 games per week when the season starts, plus, plus, plus. The intensity of Varsity practices far exceed the best Bantam practices because of the length and talent pool. And yes I have seen some of the best Bantam teams ever, in the 25 plus years of coaching. They're still no match for the High School regimen. If you're looking for playing time and lots of games play Bantams. If you're looking to become a stronger player, and perhaps be an impact College player...get to High School as fast as you can. As always, I qualify this as being my opinion based on my experiences as a parent and coach and not one of the final word on the subject...and we all know what they say about opinions!!!!!<br>Regards and "I'll see you at the rink" <p></p><i></i>

[packerboy]

I think it depends on the situation and the player. But generally I agree with those that say stay in Bantams unless you will play regularly in high school at varsity. <br><br>I see very little advantage to JV over Bantam A/VFW. JV starts in mid November vs Bantams the first week in October. JV is restricted to 25 games. JV will play 4 lines except PP and penalty kill; be done in Feb and have no playoffs. <br><br>Bantam A /VFW wil play 40 or so games with 3 lines pretty equal. If they do well in playoffs will play into March and if not maybe get into a late tournament. There is a District, regional and state tournamnet to play for.<br><br>Bantam A is the best of a group of kids and not the "B" team which is what the JV is. <br><br>But I agree with oldmanhockey, if you make the varsity 3rd line or above, do it <br><br>The above assumes that there is good coaching and a reasonably competitive Bantam team. <p></p><i></i>

[pucklover7]

I don't have so much of a problem with kids who are moving up to play varsity hockey. However, I don't agree with moving up to play JV hockey. I think the best players of that age group as a whole are playing Bantams. JV hockey does not offer the top to bottom talent that a Bantam a team does. <br><br>How many JV players never make it to the Varsity team? I would say there is quite a few. So now you are competing against talent that is not the upper level. <br><br>The other testimony I see to playing Bantams is that, it is fun to hang out with your friends in the hotels, or on road trips, etc. <br><br>Don't get me wrong, I loved playing high school hockey, I just loved youth hockey more, it didn't seem like as much as a job, it was less stressful, and just overall more fun.<br><br>I can't however give an argument for the economics of that decision. There is no question that youth hockey is considerably more expensive, and for those who need that financial break I say go and move up.<br><br>For everyone else, unless you are playing varsity hockey, stay back. JV is not really that great. <p></p><i></i>

[Knowlze]

Every situation is different and should be evaluated individually.<br><br>From the player's perspective, for the best potential for improvement, it is most effective to play against the best possible competition. Therefore, in general, HS hockey is the preferred. However, I can't think of many situations where JV would be preferred over Bantam A.<br><br>From the coaches perspective, yes, you want the best available talent. However, I think maturity may be overlooked. In my opinion, not many Freshmen have the maturity for HS hockey. Remember how Warroad took the super talented 8th grader from St. Thomas out of the game this past tournament.<br><br>Plus there is always next year(s) for these guys, and they usually play like it when it counts at the end. I think more coaches would be rewarded with a less talented Senior player at playoff time.<br><br>Also, by selecting young players, you have removed a lot of incentive to improve. Some players handle that better than others. Some will continue to work hard, while others may slack. Make these kids work for it, we will have better players in the long run.<br><br>Furthermore, coaches are setting these players up to move on. If a player has already experienced varsity hockey as a freshmen, why stick around for 3 more years? I think a lot of these players end up moving to better private school programs, juniors, or the National Development Program.<br><br>Not that Freshmen should never be selected, but I think coaches should consider more than just talent when selecting a bantam player. In my experience, there are very few bantams with the physical and mental maturity to play varsity hockey. This is an opinion, based on observations over the years. <p></p><i></i>

[goldy313]

Just a couple of questions...<br><br>1) In a very large school distict like Anoka or Eden Prairie, is Bantam A better than High School JV? I would think that JV teams like that would be a step up over VFW since many large hockey associations field multiple "A" Bantam teams but only 1 JV team. <br><br>2) In a private school wouldn't a freshman be better off playing with the kids who will be their teamates as soon as possible instead of playing at say Lakeville then leaving that to go play at AHA with all new kids the next year? <br><br>I don't think there are any right or wrong answers, just looking for some opinions.<br><br><br><br>I think good coaching can neutralize just about anyone, I watched Peter Mueller and Ben(?) Gordon from IF go at it in a holiday tournament a few years ago and both were shut down by the other team. A day to scout and prepare do wonders. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p074.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... oldy313</A> at: 6/15/05 9:53 pm<br></i>