Curious as to if this pertains to girls... Anyone know?
http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/showstudent. ... agenda.htm
Minnesota State High School League
EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE MEETING
Izatys Conference Center
Tuesday, August 8, 2006
Beginning at 8:00 a.m.
AGENDA
1.
Approval of Minutes from the June 11, 2006 Executive Committee meeting which are attached for your review
2.
Elite athletes and their participation opportunities
3.
Deaf and hard-of-hearing students
4.
Duluth hockey co-op
5.
Other
Duluth
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
-
ghshockeyfan
- Posts: 6132
- Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 2:33 pm
- Location: Inver Grove Heights, MN
- Contact:
-
Rocketwrister
- Posts: 700
- Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:45 am
Duluth
I heard a rumor in Duluth a couple days ago that Denfeld/Central might combine with East for girls. Should be interesting to see what name/who is "in charge" of that program and WHO is coaching.
-
ghshockeyfan
- Posts: 6132
- Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 2:33 pm
- Location: Inver Grove Heights, MN
- Contact:
Re: Duluth
Agreed, and this quote in a recent posting looking for a game pretty much backs this up:Rocketwrister wrote:I heard a rumor in Duluth a couple days ago that Denfeld/Central might combine with East for girls. Should be interesting to see what name/who is "in charge" of that program and WHO is coaching.
"With Denfeld/Central combining with Duluth East...we need another game."
-
Rocketwrister
- Posts: 700
- Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:45 am
Duluth
Yeah, currently Denfeld/Central are combined with no JV and East has no JV either.
-
ghshockeyfan
- Posts: 6132
- Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 2:33 pm
- Location: Inver Grove Heights, MN
- Contact:
Re: combos
I think the girls numbers are deceiving in some ways. What I mean is that we want to believe that the game is growing (and it is in many ways) but may this be a bit of a down period in the U14 & up groups... Many cite amazing 12, 10, 8 numbers - but maybe this is part of a cycle that is trending upward but still has its low points...SEMetro wrote:What entities have to approve a combo - just the high schools and conferences? How long does it usually take to get it done? Seems like Duluth worked through the red tape quickly - which is great for the girls.
I also wonder if the MSHSL will approve all these co-ops. In many cases they are truly needed, but in others there can be tons of kids that aren't potentially being counted (JV'ers left out of counts), and others that are being counted that shouldn't be (U14 kids shouldn't be counted in my mind), etc.
Interesting thought: If we took all U14 kids out of G HS hockey, how many HS teams would we have after all the co-ops were done? I bet we'd have only 75% of the HS V teams in the state now, and probably only 25% of the JV's as well. We'd also have probably have 4 times the number of U14 teams we have now.
Something needs to be done about the JV/U14 issues.
-
ghshockeyfan
- Posts: 6132
- Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 2:33 pm
- Location: Inver Grove Heights, MN
- Contact:
...
As discussed...
http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/showstudent. ... inutes.htm
Summary of the Minutes of the Board of Directors Meeting
August 8, 2006
Board Actions
8.
Received Executive Committee’s report regarding:
· Approval of a one (1) year co-op in girls’ hockey for Duluth Denfeld, Central and East High Schools provided that all of the required documentation is submitted
http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/showstudent. ... inutes.htm
Summary of the Minutes of the Board of Directors Meeting
August 8, 2006
Board Actions
8.
Received Executive Committee’s report regarding:
· Approval of a one (1) year co-op in girls’ hockey for Duluth Denfeld, Central and East High Schools provided that all of the required documentation is submitted
-
Rocketwrister
- Posts: 700
- Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:45 am
crap
Isn't that a bunch of crap? The 3 Duluth High schools can only put together 1 team? ONE TEAM?!??
Come on....you have schools two to three times as small that have teams...and the 3 Duluth schools can only get 1 team?
Blows my mind. Not sure why the MSHSL would even allow it!?
Come on....you have schools two to three times as small that have teams...and the 3 Duluth schools can only get 1 team?
Blows my mind. Not sure why the MSHSL would even allow it!?
-
ghshockeyfan
- Posts: 6132
- Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 2:33 pm
- Location: Inver Grove Heights, MN
- Contact:
Re: crap
Some have expressed similar concerns about the "North Metro Stars" (Park Center, Osseo, Fridley, Columbia Heights and Brooklyn Center).Rocketwrister wrote:Isn't that a bunch of crap? The 3 Duluth High schools can only put together 1 team? ONE TEAM?!??
Come on....you have schools two to three times as small that have teams...and the 3 Duluth schools can only get 1 team?
Blows my mind. Not sure why the MSHSL would even allow it!?
-
Rocketwrister
- Posts: 700
- Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:45 am
?
I understand that there are schools that either need to OR are obligated to co-op with a close neighboring school, BUT to have all those schools together to form the "stars" is totally unacceptable. Just as all 3 Duluth schools combining. It isn't fair for the "little" guy down the road who's one school or small schools are together playing the game they love and hope to excell at.
Just goes to show that the MSHSL doesn't have a backbone to say no to these outrageous co-ops as they don't have backbone to say no to open enrollment.
Just goes to show that the MSHSL doesn't have a backbone to say no to these outrageous co-ops as they don't have backbone to say no to open enrollment.
-
hockeywild7
- Posts: 421
- Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:20 am
-
ghshockeyfan
- Posts: 6132
- Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 2:33 pm
- Location: Inver Grove Heights, MN
- Contact:
In my humble opinion, I'd approve any co-op of any number of schools on a year-to-year basis, as long as two things are present:
1) A TRUE head count of current active players in grades 9-12 (maybe should even be just 10-12) at the schools involved that justifies such action.
2) Proven effort to grow numbers at the youth levels by all involved schools & work to field top-age-range youth teams vs. rushing kids to HS to keep teams viable.
If #1 results in more than 15 players at any one school, I think you need to look at that school standing alone year-by-year. The exception may be that if one school has 10 players and another school 20, maybe let them co-op to allow for a 30 player JV & V setup - else the 10 player school may not have a viable team.
When you have a large number of schools, like a city-wide co-op, I can tell you that that doesn't mean that you're going to have too many players for a co-op to be ethical. It does however mean that you need to monitor this year-to-year.
We also have to remember that MSHSL is a participation based entity, and not about being competitive. Lack of winning is not a reason to co-op even if you have a ton of weaker ability players.
The first coaching job I had in St. Paul was created due to the St. Paul wide "Blades" being forced to split into two co-ops for a 4 year period due to a large swell in G Hockey numbers. What amounted to the core of the JV team from the last season as a city-wide co-op became the core of my "West" team (St. Paul Stars), while the "Blades" retained the "East." Interestingly within a year of separating, the "West Stars" swept the "East Blades" - which many saw as proof that two teams were needed during this period. But, after 4 years the numbers moved through and went back to one team as is now the case as the West numbers moving up seemed to return to private school kids (as was common prior to the split for the kids in that West Highland-Central area). I can tell you that I myself initiated the talks about investigating if the St. Paul "two teams" were indeed still viable near the end of the "West" team. While I knew that this meant I wouldn't have a job, I could see beyond that and what was likely best for all based on the participation projections. I can tell you that this was not an easy thing that resulted in dramatic public meetings, etc. But, you have to keep in mind that there was a HUGE Title IX push to get the two teams to begin with during the period of huge numbers...
I guess I don't have a problem if the two things that I mentioned above are the case, but, if you have to have multiple JV teams, have well over 40, 50, 60 players involved in a 3-4-5+ school co-op, are looking at the prospect of cutting kids out of hockey to make a more competitive team, I don't know what best.
You have to be proactive to avoid kids being stuck with nowhere to play as is illustrated by the 10 players school scenario, but you also have to consider if a co-op isn't best for the fact that it stops the bleeding at the top and may make U12 & U14 youth teams viable vs. rushing kids to HS.
There needs to be incentive for each school to work to field a HS team, but you can't force a situation where some kids may not have a HS team to play on with too few players.
Also, I would hope that the MSHSL may consider evaluating competitive nature of "big school" weak teams with few players. Meaning, maybe a bigger HS isn't "big" hockey participation wise... Maybe then they should be allowed to play Class A for sections/state if their record is poor? This wouldn't be popular, but I guess I liked the tiers that were used in the early 90's for boys HS...
If I had my way, we'd take the top 64 teams from KRACH power rankings and make them AA and the remaining teams would be A as the reason for classes is a "participation" based idea, but that to be fair to weaker teams at larger schools should probably factor in the quality of their team. Big HS doesn’t = big G Hockey #'s... But they should work towards this correlation everywhere obviously...
I'd also seed the state & section tourneys using KRACH, but that's only as it often mirrors the section coaches voting and would like to see a seeded state tourney to avoid the state championship being played in QF... But that's another unrelated topic for another time...
1) A TRUE head count of current active players in grades 9-12 (maybe should even be just 10-12) at the schools involved that justifies such action.
2) Proven effort to grow numbers at the youth levels by all involved schools & work to field top-age-range youth teams vs. rushing kids to HS to keep teams viable.
If #1 results in more than 15 players at any one school, I think you need to look at that school standing alone year-by-year. The exception may be that if one school has 10 players and another school 20, maybe let them co-op to allow for a 30 player JV & V setup - else the 10 player school may not have a viable team.
When you have a large number of schools, like a city-wide co-op, I can tell you that that doesn't mean that you're going to have too many players for a co-op to be ethical. It does however mean that you need to monitor this year-to-year.
We also have to remember that MSHSL is a participation based entity, and not about being competitive. Lack of winning is not a reason to co-op even if you have a ton of weaker ability players.
The first coaching job I had in St. Paul was created due to the St. Paul wide "Blades" being forced to split into two co-ops for a 4 year period due to a large swell in G Hockey numbers. What amounted to the core of the JV team from the last season as a city-wide co-op became the core of my "West" team (St. Paul Stars), while the "Blades" retained the "East." Interestingly within a year of separating, the "West Stars" swept the "East Blades" - which many saw as proof that two teams were needed during this period. But, after 4 years the numbers moved through and went back to one team as is now the case as the West numbers moving up seemed to return to private school kids (as was common prior to the split for the kids in that West Highland-Central area). I can tell you that I myself initiated the talks about investigating if the St. Paul "two teams" were indeed still viable near the end of the "West" team. While I knew that this meant I wouldn't have a job, I could see beyond that and what was likely best for all based on the participation projections. I can tell you that this was not an easy thing that resulted in dramatic public meetings, etc. But, you have to keep in mind that there was a HUGE Title IX push to get the two teams to begin with during the period of huge numbers...
I guess I don't have a problem if the two things that I mentioned above are the case, but, if you have to have multiple JV teams, have well over 40, 50, 60 players involved in a 3-4-5+ school co-op, are looking at the prospect of cutting kids out of hockey to make a more competitive team, I don't know what best.
You have to be proactive to avoid kids being stuck with nowhere to play as is illustrated by the 10 players school scenario, but you also have to consider if a co-op isn't best for the fact that it stops the bleeding at the top and may make U12 & U14 youth teams viable vs. rushing kids to HS.
There needs to be incentive for each school to work to field a HS team, but you can't force a situation where some kids may not have a HS team to play on with too few players.
Also, I would hope that the MSHSL may consider evaluating competitive nature of "big school" weak teams with few players. Meaning, maybe a bigger HS isn't "big" hockey participation wise... Maybe then they should be allowed to play Class A for sections/state if their record is poor? This wouldn't be popular, but I guess I liked the tiers that were used in the early 90's for boys HS...
If I had my way, we'd take the top 64 teams from KRACH power rankings and make them AA and the remaining teams would be A as the reason for classes is a "participation" based idea, but that to be fair to weaker teams at larger schools should probably factor in the quality of their team. Big HS doesn’t = big G Hockey #'s... But they should work towards this correlation everywhere obviously...
I'd also seed the state & section tourneys using KRACH, but that's only as it often mirrors the section coaches voting and would like to see a seeded state tourney to avoid the state championship being played in QF... But that's another unrelated topic for another time...
-
ghshockeyfan
- Posts: 6132
- Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 2:33 pm
- Location: Inver Grove Heights, MN
- Contact:
...
Back in the day, two co-oped AA schools couldn't play at state...
From Pioneer Press 6-16-2000
Here are a couple related links from the process we went through in St. Paul. I think this process is best for all to understand the co-op issues:
http://www.bgoski.com/simley/PREP%20HOC ... 002%29.htm
http://www.bgoski.com/simley/Stars%27%2 ... 002%29.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted on Tue, Feb. 12, 2002
Stars get OK for next season
BY JIM WELLS, MIKE FERMOYLE AND TIM LEIGHTON
Pioneer Press
The St. Paul Stars got a reprieve Monday, which means St. Paul will continue to have two public school girls hockey teams, at least for another year.
After meeting with coaches of the St. Paul Blades and St. Paul Stars, City Conference administrators have determined there will be a sufficient number of girls to field both teams next season.
"We're going to leave it as it is,'' said Highland Park athletics director John Heller. "We will have two programs next season, and we'll re-evaluate the situation each year.''
It isn't certain that either team will have enough players to field junior varsity squads, however.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following year:
http://www.bgoski.com/simley/NewsLibrar ... stars1.htm
http://www.bgoski.com/simley/NewsLibrar ... stars2.htm
From Pioneer Press 6-16-2000
Here are a couple related links from the process we went through in St. Paul. I think this process is best for all to understand the co-op issues:
http://www.bgoski.com/simley/PREP%20HOC ... 002%29.htm
http://www.bgoski.com/simley/Stars%27%2 ... 002%29.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted on Tue, Feb. 12, 2002
Stars get OK for next season
BY JIM WELLS, MIKE FERMOYLE AND TIM LEIGHTON
Pioneer Press
The St. Paul Stars got a reprieve Monday, which means St. Paul will continue to have two public school girls hockey teams, at least for another year.
After meeting with coaches of the St. Paul Blades and St. Paul Stars, City Conference administrators have determined there will be a sufficient number of girls to field both teams next season.
"We're going to leave it as it is,'' said Highland Park athletics director John Heller. "We will have two programs next season, and we'll re-evaluate the situation each year.''
It isn't certain that either team will have enough players to field junior varsity squads, however.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following year:
http://www.bgoski.com/simley/NewsLibrar ... stars1.htm
http://www.bgoski.com/simley/NewsLibrar ... stars2.htm