FEEDBACK on NEW STANDARDS of PENALTIES

[elliott70]

I am looking for feedback on the new standards from Coaches, Players, Refs, and fans.

I am looking for quality comments (they suck is NOT quality).

Please identify yourself as a Coach, player, fan, ref, or whatever, and what district you see/play most of your youth hockey, and what level(s) (Bantam A, 12UB).

I need this by Friday (January 12) at NOON. And will be taking the quality comments to the MN Hockey Board.

Thank you.
Mark Elliott
District 16 Director

[Indian Head]

It seems to me the referees have relaxed a little bit compared to early in the season. There are still a few questionable holding/hooking calls but I think the players are also learning to use their feet more than their sticks or hands. One thing I have noticed is that some referees are looking to call the minor hoohing type penalties and are letting some of the headchecking/elbow penalties go which is bad in my opinion.

[zboni99]

D6, PWB1

Fan/parent

The hooking and slashing calls are good. There are too many quick penalities at the net right after the whistle blows, the defense should be allowed to protect their goalie and the attacking team has to be allowed to be agressive in front of the net. Let the kids play, it's hockey. Too many boarding penalities when a bigger player puts a good check on a smaller player. Too many interference calls on the face-off. In general, I like the hooking, slashing, and holding calls in the open ice and in the corners. I like the charging calls. I think there are too many interference calls.

[SLP/SW Coach]

Head Coach - Peewee A - Districts 1 & 3 (all metro areas)

I really think the "New Standard of Play" type of rules are doing OK.
BUT, it is the consistency in which they, as well as other penalties, are called is the real problem. They are called differently from district to district and even with in each district. The "stick work" penalties are all fairly easy to see. The problem area, that I have noticed most, is the Interference Penalties that officials can not seem to grasp. I have not seen more than 2-3 calls for "The Pick" type of play, yet they are still happening all of the time. YET, officials are calling Interference Penalties on players when they are checking a player that is carrying the puck, just because it is a "big hit." For many officials, I don't think they understand the "New Standards of Play." I believe that they are taking this as a way to limit the physical play of the game and not calling things the way they are intended.

It really seems that much more is being asked of coaches, in terms of USA & Minnesota Hockey MANDATORY training sessions, than is being asked of officials learning the rules of the game. This really bothers me when officials do not know a rule. The real problem is, when you as a coach attempt to explain the rule to an official, they will not listen. I have asked twice this season, where I KNEW for a fact that they were making an incorrect rule interpretation for them to look up the rule, because I believed they were wrong. Both times the officials refused and both times it turned out that they were wrong. One of these times, this decision directly influenced the outcome of the game. Seriously, KNOW THE RULES, or if you don't know 100% then it is OK TO LOOK THE RULE UP!!!

THANK YOU!!!

[QuackerTracker]

Too many boarding penalities when a bigger player puts a good check on a smaller player

The boarding rule was not really part of the new line of enforsement. Officials are watching it the same as the have in previous years. Any time a check is made towards the boards we watch for the player being hits head. You may be noticing it more now if you kid is a first yr PW or playing up at the B1 level for the first time where play is faster and there is more contact.

D6 Ref/fan
I think that the younger kids are starting to figure it out. The younger kids are starting to get it. The older kids are not. I think that there was some confusion at the start of the year with some refs that players could not even lift sticks. I think that the calling has been refined. In all I think the hockey is great. In the last 3 games I have officiated there where about 4 penalties per game. Not bad.

[instigator]

D6 Coach BB1

Standards of play are fine, it is the inconsistency that is problematic. Official to official, game to game, and even minute to minute within games you truly do not know what will and will not be called. I expected that early in the season as both the officials and the players tried to acclimate, but I would have hoped that they would have settled in by now. I feel my players are only slightly less confused now than they were at the start.

A note to officials: just because a player is bigger and stronger than another does not mean that he can be raped/pillaged/mugged/etc. The same rules apply no matter the size.

And not really under the new SOP, I really am sick and tired of a good clean check delivered on a player that has their head down being called (make something up here - elbow, head check, ...). It is hockey, and that is how players learn to keep their head up!

[boblee]

Mark-You know me as a fan... (D-IR)

I have seen the new standards enforced very well at times, and at other times it looks like last years hockey. I have seen most refs be consistent within the games, but not all refs are consistent with eachother.

[wannagototherink]

Too many boarding penalities when a bigger player puts a good check on a smaller player

The boarding rule was not really part of the new line of enforsement. Officials are watching it the same as the have in previous years. Any time a check is made towards the boards we watch for the player being hits head. You may be noticing it more now if you kid is a first yr PW or playing up at the B1 level for the first time where play is faster and there is more contact.

D6 Ref/fan
I think that the younger kids are starting to figure it out. The younger kids are starting to get it. The older kids are not. I think that there was some confusion at the start of the year with some refs that players could not even lift sticks. I think that the calling has been refined. In all I think the hockey is great. In the last 3 games I have officiated there where about 4 penalties per game. Not bad.[/quote/]

I have to agree with the first statement, there is a considerable amount of physical play that has been taken away. It seems as if now, whenever there is a big hit it is automatically a penalty. Especially in the case of hip checks. Now I believe if a kid sticks out their knee and trips someone, it should be an automatic 5 minute major, I've seen too many knees ruined in my business because of that play or any other knee to knee contact. However, the hip check is IMO one of the most beautiful plays in hockey if done correctly. I have seen too many tripping calls this year after a player has executed a perfect hip check. I do though think the kids are starting to adjust, it has gotten better from the first few weeks of the year to now, but there is so much inconsistancy from district to district. We traveled to Duluth in November, the calls were pretty good, than we play in Edina in late December and the calls were aweful. I think that there is too much power given to the individual referee's, they expect a coach to listen to them and then in turn do not listen to what the coaches have to say, and times are almost antagonistic. The fact is they really have no accountability plus they are the only ones collecting a paycheck. As a fan that is frustrating, I can only imagine what it is like to deal with as a coach. Don't get me wrong, I think as a whole the game is getting better because of the new rules, I like the fact that the game has become more skilled, and you can really see it already, now a few months in.

Last thing, I think a rule that needs to be cleared up is the "head contact" rule. If I am correct, that rule was put in place to start to get the hands down when checking. The problem is, and I can't blame the ref's on this one, is the rule reads that ANY contact to the head is a head check. Well the problem with that is there are such differences in the sizes of players, that it is an unfair rule. I think if a player puts a good shoulder into anothers jaw to knock him off the puck well than maybe next time that player being knocked silly will learn to keep his head up! Not that I'm looking for more concussions, I just think that hockey is a contact sport and sometimes you get beat up a little. I think if the rule is put in for the right reasons, i.e. the checking player keeping his/her hands down, than I'm all for it, otherwise it's a joke.

By the way, I'm fan/parent. I say fan seperately because I spend a lot of time watching hockey other than my son, and other than our association.

[elliott70]

Thanks everyone, feel free to add more comments.
I will be printing these at NOON on Friday to take to MN Hockey.

[theref]

Official
10+ years exp.

As an official, I can tell you that the new standards of play have definately opened up the game and made things faster and more enjoyable to watch. While not everyone will agree with how things are being called, I have heard more praise then bad and people seem to be happy with how the kids are developing, especially in the skating and puck handling areas. I will also agree that it there has been some inconsitencies between officials. For many of us, it was a welcome change as we saw players getting away with too much because upper levels wanted things go, but for many who are farther in their career than I am, the change has been difficult as they have let certain infractions go for too many years. However, I believe that come district, regions, and state, these officials will not be present. Overall, I think the program has been running excellent. For those of you that are encountering officials that seem to be calling more head contact and such infractions, it may seem that way with all the other added infractions to the game, but in reality, most of us have been calling them since they implemented the head contact rule about 4 years ago. Hitting has always been part of hockey and us officials enjoy a good hit as much as the next spectator, so don't look for the hitting to be called like many think it will be. Just think, we are only about half way through the season and the players and coaches are already starting to get what USA hockey is trying to achieve. Just think about how bright next year and the future looks.

[mnreferee1]

I have been a referee for 7 yrs. I Referee all levels through Highschool. Here are my thoughts.

I think the stricter enforcement is going well. It has not been easy on the players, coaches, Fans, or Refs but then again change is never easy. The amount of penalties being called has dropped from the beginning of the year. I credit this to the players finding out that sitting in the box is less fun than playing, and coaches learned that it is easier to play with five skaters instead of four.

When we state that the referees are "instructed to adhere to a stricter enforcement of the rules", we open the door to look at all aspects of the game and criticize what have always been called as penalties but now appear to be happening more. It is a loose correlation that a boarding call made this year is a result of the stricter enforcement of the obstructon penalties. The main emphasis on the new rule enforcement was the improper use of the stick or hands, and obstruction. These include, hooking, holding, slashing and interference. When we look at the impact of the new enforcement we need to focus in on these specific penalties. Based on the games that I have done I see that overall, the amount of obstruction related penalties has declined from the beginning of the year. I still occasionally have a game where there are several penalties however that is rare and the types of penalties are more related to the physical nature of the game as opposed to the obstruction related penalties.

On a side note, one of the most frustrating things I see is that very few players are instructed on what a proper check is. Very rarely do I see a player deliver a check with their shoulder or hip. It is mainly a frontal collision where the hands and arms are used to create the hit. But that is a whole other posting topic.

When I step on the ice, my responsibility is to ensure, to the best of my ability, that the contest is played within the rules as they are written. Hockey is a game of motion. Teams change players on the fly, the dimensions of the playing surface are setup to keep the play going. Stoppages can be few. When that happens we refer to the game as having "nice flow". All of this lends itself to an "every situation is different" scenario. Consistency will always be difficult, but not unatainable, from shift to shift, period to period, game to game, and yes referee to referee. There are good officials and not so good officials, much the same as there are good coaches and players and not so good coaches and players.

Overall I like the new enforcement and I think it is progressing well.

[DumpandChase1]

Mark,

I don't have a big problem with the new SOP, my main issue is with the fair play points. This is something that needs to be either eliminated or totally reveised.

First off, with the major inconsistency with officiating, especially in D6, these points really become unfair. I can tell you, with about 90% accuracy, before the game if we will recieve our FPP by simply looking at who is refing our game. This is no joke.

In D6 we have 5 or 6 great officials and the rest should be doing squirt and mite games. The game to game inconsistency is unreal. By the way, D6 should make up a new rule, Big kid hitting Smaller kid, no matter if it is a legal check or not.

I have been coaching hockey for 18 years, from high school to pee wee, and still can't figure out why this program got started. We had a great product with no problems before HEP, now I feel like hockey has taken a step back. This is a solution that is in search of a problem that did not exist.

[shoot to thrill]

D6 fan -

I like the new rules of enforcement but I also question the consistency in calling the penalties. It does seem that a bigger or stronger player who hits someone cleanly but hard into the boards is likely to get called for boarding or some other infraction. Roughing has also been called far more frequently and in many cases it is not justified.

My biggest problem isn't the different ideas that Mn Hockey is trying to do to improve the game but the combination of all of them. When they originally introduced fairplay points it seemed reasonable to try and reward teams for 'clean' play and punish teams that took bad penalties. It was based strictly on how many minutes of penalties a team received during a game and they reduced the amount of some penalty minutes to make it reasonable.

Then they changed some of the penalties back to making them count for full value (checking from behind is one). I hate players who check from behind but quite often the player being hit has merely changed their body position (ducking or moving to avoid the hit) and the player who is hitting them can not react quickly enough. With the increase to full value, that penalty virtually eliminates you from gaining your fairplay point.

Now they have added the new rules of enforcement which is a huge learning curve for players/refs/coaches. Throughout these changes there has been no change in the minutes allowed or, more importantly, how fairplay points effect the standings. In our district with 16 games, there are 16 points that you can lose (or get). That means that it is feasible for a team to be 16-0 for the season and be tied with a team that is 8-8. That just doesn't seem right to me especially with the inconsistency in calling etc..

I would much prefer that you continue to have the stricter rules of enforcement but look at how much the fairplay points should effect standings.

[54fighting]

I think the news rules are very good for the game. If they are called consistantly they make for a faster and better game. Notice I said IF they are called consitstantly.
As a PW coach and a fan of hockey at all levels I have to say this season has been the most frustrating I have had. There is no consistancy what so ever from game to game, even within a particular district. I think most players and coaches are willing to adapt as long as they know the rules and how they are going to be enforced. I was at a D6 tournament recently and the way that the PW games were called was a disgrace. In every game I watched at least half of the game was played in some type of shorthanded situation. I saw kids get holding penalties when they were just tied up with an opposing player along the boards fighting for the puck. No grabbing, just tied up. I know for a fact I saw more face off interferance calls that weekend than I have seen in my entire career combined.
I guess my overall point is that MN Hockey needs to be sure that the Chief Referees from each district are all on the same page and then instruct them to make sure that the referees in thier district are all following the same guidlines. Otherwise the frustrations will just continue.

[elliott70]

ttt

[youngblood52]

[quote="54fightingIf they are called consistantly they make for a faster and better game. Notice I said IF they are called consitstantly.

Im a player and the hard thing that ive seen teams struggle with is the vfw and district ways of the game are called. VFW the refs seem to let you play more not thats a bad thing but you can get away with stuff you normally wouldnt in district play. From what ive seen, if you play a VFW game one night and then a district game the next night, teams come in playing the game like they were in VFW. That makes for more penalties and the loss of a HEP point (which i think are bogus, but thats just me).

[jancze5]

Parent/Fan

What I've noticed is an honest disparity in the consistency of calls from rink to rink and game to game. The SOP interpretation seems to be different from game to game. I've seen PW games where one REF has his whistle in his cold hand, while the other guy keeps his hand warm by actually blowing it and sending 15 boys to the box...also, if you watch a game with 91's or 92's, you will notice that the REFS actually let them play in that triangle in front of the net, they can body each other around, while less experienced REFS at younger age levels have tended to call cross-checking and even interference on the D in front of the net moving the forward. The most called penalties in our games seem to be interference and tripping...98% of these calls are right on the money.
This has cleaned up the game a bit. Bottom line...speed speed speed and skating skating skating is the now the American game...a 14 year old that's big and can't move is now a liability and will be in the C league in the future, while his little buddy in class who can't stand straight in the wind but skate like the wind will be a better pick.
It's been frustrating, almost think it would have been better to pick a young age group...like 95's and below and institute the changes to them and every year after...filter in the changes over 4 years and eventually everyone will have played under the new enforcement of the same rules that have always existed. Asking a Bantam age or Prep player to change the way he's been tought to play since age 5 is very difficult.

[OB1]

It SUX worse than... I better keep it clean.

I’m sure the "purest" will disagree (whatever that term means) but I have come to love tough defense as part of the game. Under these rules there will never be another Scott Stevens, Chris Pronger or Derian Hatcher as we are conditioning all our defensemen to be so cautious about drawing a penalty that standing a guy up at the blue line or clearing a player out of the crease will be non-existent. “Finish your check” will become an obsolete coaching term. The constant interference calls are lame and I’m thinking about designing an arm sling that refs can use to just hold their arm up all game long. The non-stop parade to the sin bin stops flow and I don’t care what position you take on this SOP issue, a game without flow is boring to play and sux to watch. If these new SOPs are really that good, I’d like to see them implemented at the high school level the way they are at Jr Gold and Bantam. Fans wouldn’t stand for it, or better yet, pay to watch it. If MN hockey thinks they can grow local hockey by only filling the stands with parents and family- knock yourself out. My $.02 bet otherwise. I believe that if you want to grow the game, make it exciting, and make all the players master a skill (O&D), DON’T TAKE THE DEFENSE OUT OF THE GAME which is exactly how I see this new POS (piece of BAN ME) being implemented. Is Jorgenson’s kid a wussy or are the PC Mayo doctors involved again?

[Duluth East Hockey Fan]

It SUX worse than... I better keep it clean.

I’m sure the "purest" will disagree (whatever that term means) but I have come to love tough defense as part of the game. Under these rules there will never be another Scott Stevens, Chris Pronger or Derian Hatcher as we are conditioning all our defensemen to be so cautious about drawing a penalty that standing a guy up at the blue line or clearing a player out of the crease will be non-existent. “Finish your check” will become an obsolete coaching term. The constant interference calls are lame and I’m thinking about designing an arm sling that refs can use to just hold their arm up all game long. The non-stop parade to the sin bin stops flow and I don’t care what position you take on this SOP issue, a game without flow is boring to play and sux to watch. If these new SOPs are really that good, I’d like to see them implemented at the high school level the way they are at Jr Gold and Bantam. Fans wouldn’t stand for it, or better yet, pay to watch it. If MN hockey thinks they can grow local hockey by only filling the stands with parents and family- knock yourself out. My $.02 bet otherwise. I believe that if you want to grow the game, make it exciting, and make all the players master a skill (O&D), DON’T TAKE THE DEFENSE OUT OF THE GAME which is exactly how I see this new POS (piece of BAN ME) being implemented. Is Jorgenson’s kid a wussy or are the PC Mayo doctors involved again?

OB1~

I respect your opinion on this, but I have to disagree! The game in its purest form is about skating. Kids who work hard to develope their skating should be rewarded for that. I personally thought these new standards would be the end of hockey as we know it! Boy was I wrong. Like an earlier poster commented, change is hard. We all have our comfort zones that we live within, the SOP challenged us as fans/players/coaches to get outside our comfort zones. That is what life is all about, challenging yourself to get better. Has it been frustrating at times, absolutely, but I think if you (as I have done since this all started) take a step back and look at what the game will be like in 3, 5, 10 years, hockey will be an exciting game and the perception that it is not barbaric could ultimately help the sport to grow.


That doesn't mean the defense is taken completely out of the game either. I personally would rather watch Scott Neidermayer stop a guy 1 on 1 grap the puck and go end to end with it, than watch D. Hatcher shove his stick across a guys chest and hold him up. Chris Pronger seems to still be a pretty affective D and he doesn't seem to be any less intimidating. Now I know comparing NHL'ers to youth hockey players is somewhat of a stretch. But if you again look at the big picture and see how much more enjoyable it is to watch and play and what they might be down the line, than great.

Mark,

That covers my feelings on the SOP, I do however I agree with everyone else about both the consistancy as well as the HEP points. I think that MH should eliminate the fairplay point all together, either that or require each district to have their best officials, officiating all district games. The latter seems pretty unrealistic due to the volume of district games and the lack of referees.

I also think that MH should have a way for coaches to eveluate officials performances. The MHSL has on their website a way for coaches to go in and evaluate the officials on a game by game basis. For the most part you can tell if an official has a problem or if it is just a winey coach who felt slighted. I don't believe only being evaluated by their peers is an effective way of determining how the game is managed. In any event because this is getting long, there needs to be some kind of coaches evaluation of officials, it could also eliminate coaches from being so angry during games because at least they have an outlet to vent their frustration.

Finally, thank you for taking the time to get some feedback, I think that is a problem with MH, as a whole I don't know if everyone listens to what "the people" think or feel. So again, Thank you!

[tomASS]

D6 Parent/Fan and 30+ year veteran of officiating another beautiful game.

Great use of the site for feedback elliot - way to take advantage of a tool available to you to get very real honest feedback.

Duluth East Hockey Fan - well stated with much of what I was going to indicate.

Higher benchmark of enforcing the Rules of the Game needs to make sure of the following

1. Constant monitering - so great step in doing this
2. The interpretation of calls and the new higher level of enforcement has too wide of spectrum of consistency in their application. Meaning that additional on ice training and video training may be required for referees so the consistency level goes up. Keeping the training only to a district level sometimes causes the noticeable difference in application of the SOP from district to district. Training should be focused to get all referees sharing a more common interpretation of the SOP.
3. maybe developing a mentoring program for the younger referees. I know limited man-power resources to do this but well worth it
4. Raising the benchmark of the SOP without doing the same for the fair play points was short sighted. If Fair Play Points (Barney Points) are being monitered and used for standings, and there was all sorts of discussion prior to the season that the amount of penalties will be going up substantially, then something should have been adjusted in regard to the FP points. More support of the SOP would be evident if the enforcement of it didn't affect the fairplay points so dramatically causing anxiety from coaches, parents, players. Take the anxiety of away during the implementation of a new enforcements levels and there is less concern of the referees performance. FP points heighten the criticalness of referee consistency. Besides someone earlier said it best. The Penalty and playing short handed is punishment enough.

5) referee crews need to do a better job with on ice communcation and their game management skills. Shouting, "move the puck", or "No" to call off icing, or throwing kids out of face offs is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to on-ice communication. Needs to improve dramatically when you are raising the SOP

I do believe skating and skills should be awarded, but I have seen the good clean physical play, which is part of the essence of the game, go way down because players are still confused on what will be called and what won't be called - game to game and district to district.

I do believe because of the higher level of enforcement desired in the SOP that referees have also applied a higher level of interpretation to physical play penalties. I have seen more roughing and boarding penalties this year then in past years (Does the state keep track?)

I understand the force of the pendulum, but better training in narrowing the inconsistency will bring the pendulum to where it belongs. Dead, spot on in the middle.

The referee evalution system needs to be improved. The manner it is set up does not allow the referee program to gain some of the information that might help in evaluating referees better. A marketing company might be able to help you establish a system that provides more and better fedback.

Finally - The referee crew at the Chaska/Burnsville BB1 Game was the best by far this year. And for quakertracker- we lost that one just to show you I can be unbiased based on game outcome. The players determined the game and the referee crew enforced the SOP as well as I have seen this year.

[theref]

OB1:

The supposed "defense" that you are talking about consists of hooking, clutching, and grabbing which never should have been allowed to happen in the first place. I also hope you can find a better example than Darian Hatcher for your argument. While I am not in the NHL and not at his skill level, he has watched the game fly past him (along with many Sabres forwards) with his large size and absolutely slow feet.

[elliott70]

Again, thanks to everyone.

More posts are welcome.

Negative comments are welcome, but what we want is more than a comment but reasons. So far everyone has done a very good job, so, again,

Thanks.

[elliott70]

ttt

[Pucknutz69]

D8 coach PW and Bantam, parent.

The Interferance calls are ridiculous, Refs are having a hard time finding who is at fault. Which tells me the phantom ones should go away. If a player goes out of his way to "Interfere" with another player then of course make the call. But if they are both changing direction, looking for a loose puck and just plain run into each other with out the intent of interferring how can you make a call? Some refs are penalizing the one who stayed on his feet, they are just reacting to something that happened. Another example is when a player is skating with the puck and has the intention of heading up ice with it, instead of stickhandling he pushes the puck 2-3 feet ahead and chases it. He is still controlling the puck. The defensive player then checks him why is that considered interferance?

On another note get rid of the HEP points. They can determine who lands where in district playoffs but we get to Regionals and State and they mean nothing, as they should. The kids already sit for the infraction they committed on the ice. We are doing more against kids that hold or hook but the ones that continuously "leg check" and commit other infractions of the intent to injure varity are still skating. Lets see more to protect kids from goon play. I skated my whole life and have not missed 1 game due to injury. In my 14 years of coaching, I have seen more injuries in the past 5. Kids with concussions from head checks, bad knees and broken legs from leg checks. We have a kid out, that was basically jumped on top of, he ended up with a broken leg and is sitting out the season but the kid that did it is still playing.

More should be done about the injury type penalties instead of refferies judgement call type penalties.

[theref]

As a referee, there is only so much we can do for certain types of penalties. On something such as a leg check or kneeing, if a player is injuered, we can call a 5 minute major + game misconduct, which means the player misses the remainder of that game and the next game for that team.

We are not allowed to punish due to the extent of an injury, that would fall into USA or MN hockey's hands.

The only time we may have any input on a several game suspension is when a match penalty is called, however match penalties are used for extremely severe cases such as a player going onto an opposing teams bench to injur a coach or a coach coming after a player on the ice.

As for the intereference, I'm sure there are a few officials still getting the hang of what is and is not interference. Or you may also be seeing some things differently than the official is because if you are not an official, you probably don't look for the same things we do when penalties are involved.

Remember, just like a lot of this is new for players and coaches, it is also new for many of the officials. So I believe there will probably be a learning period for them as well.