USA Hockey put out a very nice 15 minute video (on their website) about the new rule interpretations. I know that the MSHSL is not bound by that, but I would be shocked if the MSHSL was not leveraging that video with it’s refs.
Unfortunately, however, it does not appear that the refs have seen it. The only impact this season appears to be an increase in the quantity of calls, not a change in the type of calls. Very disappointing.
It serves no purpose to randomly call more penalties in a game. If someone obstructs, hooks the hands/body, etc., then give a penalty. If it takes 20 penalties in a game to get the point across then so be it. However, if it is a relatively clean game, and there are just many inconsistently called penalties (just to show a tightening of interpretation), then the new emphasis will be a failure.
Will Refs Call Things Tightly This Season?
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
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hshockeyfan91
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hockeyrube7
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Nice notes, and I couldn't agree more with both. It is very apparent that the reffs are trying to make a point. The sad part is they are playing way too big of a role in the outcome of the games. And that is the saddest part about it all. Let the kids decide the game from beginning to end, and call the game consistantly!
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dumpandchase
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officials
Come on people. You've all seen how much more exciting it is in the NHL. If you don't like the penalties being called don't take it out on the officials, take it out on the coaches.
I've seen my local team play 5 games now and they averaged over 10 penalties called in the first 2. The girls were out of control and playing the same way they played last year. The next 3 games they have averaged 4 penalties a game. They've gotten there feet moving they are playing smarter hockey and having better body positioning.
It is the coaches responsibility to teach the new rules. Some coaches may think there kids play better when there kids are taking penalties and being physical with the opponent. That's there choice, but don't get mad at the officials for calling penalties if the kids aren't able to adjust there game.
Yes consistency is something that needs to happen, but it is much more difficult to find consistency when you have hundreds of officials. Kids and coaches need to adjust to the referee's.
We've had the same referee in 3 games this year, first third and fifth game. He says he hasn't changed how he is calling things but that our kids have adjusted. Which is a credit to our kids. And it has allowed our better players to draw a ton of penalties, which causes the opposing coaches to get upset. I think this time that the refs aren't going to change as easily as they have in the past, so coaches will have to adjust at some point.
So just settle down for a little while, let the kids get adjusted to the new game and enjoy it when it is faster, with more passing and more scoring.
I've seen my local team play 5 games now and they averaged over 10 penalties called in the first 2. The girls were out of control and playing the same way they played last year. The next 3 games they have averaged 4 penalties a game. They've gotten there feet moving they are playing smarter hockey and having better body positioning.
It is the coaches responsibility to teach the new rules. Some coaches may think there kids play better when there kids are taking penalties and being physical with the opponent. That's there choice, but don't get mad at the officials for calling penalties if the kids aren't able to adjust there game.
Yes consistency is something that needs to happen, but it is much more difficult to find consistency when you have hundreds of officials. Kids and coaches need to adjust to the referee's.
We've had the same referee in 3 games this year, first third and fifth game. He says he hasn't changed how he is calling things but that our kids have adjusted. Which is a credit to our kids. And it has allowed our better players to draw a ton of penalties, which causes the opposing coaches to get upset. I think this time that the refs aren't going to change as easily as they have in the past, so coaches will have to adjust at some point.
So just settle down for a little while, let the kids get adjusted to the new game and enjoy it when it is faster, with more passing and more scoring.
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hockeyrube
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ghshockeyfan
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agreed!hockeyrube wrote:dumpandchase,
Very well said !!!!! I have said it several times on this forum - if the NHL can make the adjustments to the new rules, certainly high school girls can !! For those of you who just can't stand a more pure skating, skill, and finesse game - there is always rugby -
Rube
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hshockeyfan91
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but wait...
Dumpandchase, I agree with you 100% in principle.
However, my point is that the way I have seen the new emphasis being put into action is via an increased number of calls, but no additional focus on the type of calls the NHL is cracking down on.
For example, one of the players on the team I cheer for went at an opponent (who was carrying th puck) with her stick waist high - hooked the other girl for at least 3 or 4 seconds around her stomach/waist, and gained position of the puck and it resulted in a shot on goal. Good for the team I cheer for, but the wrong call. BOTH refs looked at this and called nothing.
Conversely there will be two girls skating, they accidentally collide and the one that doesn't fall down gets a penalty.
I wish wholeheartedly that refs would call penalties the way the NHL has moved (no matter how many there were in a game), but the reality seems to be that the way this is playing out is just to call more penalties randomly - and that helps no one. It appears that many refs are just calling more penalties, not understanding the intent of the emphasis changes. Don't just call penalties for the sake of a "crackdown" - that's dumb.
However, my point is that the way I have seen the new emphasis being put into action is via an increased number of calls, but no additional focus on the type of calls the NHL is cracking down on.
For example, one of the players on the team I cheer for went at an opponent (who was carrying th puck) with her stick waist high - hooked the other girl for at least 3 or 4 seconds around her stomach/waist, and gained position of the puck and it resulted in a shot on goal. Good for the team I cheer for, but the wrong call. BOTH refs looked at this and called nothing.
Conversely there will be two girls skating, they accidentally collide and the one that doesn't fall down gets a penalty.
I wish wholeheartedly that refs would call penalties the way the NHL has moved (no matter how many there were in a game), but the reality seems to be that the way this is playing out is just to call more penalties randomly - and that helps no one. It appears that many refs are just calling more penalties, not understanding the intent of the emphasis changes. Don't just call penalties for the sake of a "crackdown" - that's dumb.
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dumpandchase
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There are two issues that you have to remember.
1. Referee's are human, I've had things happen so close to me before that I don't have a clue as to what actually happened when I've been officiating. Everyone in the stands saw it but I didn't.
2. You aren't getting the best officials. The NHL takes the best, then you have minor league professional hockey, college hockey, junior hockey, and boys high school hockey. The reality is that the girls recieve what's left, often in a 2 person system in games that really could use 3.
You also have to deal with boys officials who don't understand the girls game, and officials who are just there because they think the girls games are easier to officiate and they get paid the same as a boys game.
What we need more of is people who know and love the girls game to step up and become officials, not sit here and bash them. It does nothing to improve officials to bash them. They need to be educated, just like the coaches and the kids.
The bottom line is that without officials we will not be able to play games. So if you like the girls game do something about the officials. Raise the level of discussion beyond getting on a message board that the officials aren't on, become an official and show fellow officials how the game should be called. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
1. Referee's are human, I've had things happen so close to me before that I don't have a clue as to what actually happened when I've been officiating. Everyone in the stands saw it but I didn't.
2. You aren't getting the best officials. The NHL takes the best, then you have minor league professional hockey, college hockey, junior hockey, and boys high school hockey. The reality is that the girls recieve what's left, often in a 2 person system in games that really could use 3.
You also have to deal with boys officials who don't understand the girls game, and officials who are just there because they think the girls games are easier to officiate and they get paid the same as a boys game.
What we need more of is people who know and love the girls game to step up and become officials, not sit here and bash them. It does nothing to improve officials to bash them. They need to be educated, just like the coaches and the kids.
The bottom line is that without officials we will not be able to play games. So if you like the girls game do something about the officials. Raise the level of discussion beyond getting on a message board that the officials aren't on, become an official and show fellow officials how the game should be called. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
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twowayplay
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hshockeyfan91, You have just revealed the main issue as to why there are so many penalties and inconsistancies in calling them this year. It is in you comparison between High School Refs & NHL ref's
Let's face it, the NFL ref's do this for a professional career not as a hobby or side job. They have way more resources, time training, meetings discussions, simulations etc... than any of our youth or high school ref's could have ever imagined. With that said, we expect youth or high school refs to adj as the NHL ref's did. Not going to happen. Youth and high school ref's are getting the training during your kids hockey games and it just is not fun period (with some exceptions).
The real blame lies in the youth or high school hockey / ref powers at be. They did not have a good plan or the resources to carry out a change of this magnitude. These changes should have been implemented gradually over time. Not in one preseason. As a result we get to watch (and kids play) in penalty filled, no flow hockey.
Let's face it, the NFL ref's do this for a professional career not as a hobby or side job. They have way more resources, time training, meetings discussions, simulations etc... than any of our youth or high school ref's could have ever imagined. With that said, we expect youth or high school refs to adj as the NHL ref's did. Not going to happen. Youth and high school ref's are getting the training during your kids hockey games and it just is not fun period (with some exceptions).
The real blame lies in the youth or high school hockey / ref powers at be. They did not have a good plan or the resources to carry out a change of this magnitude. These changes should have been implemented gradually over time. Not in one preseason. As a result we get to watch (and kids play) in penalty filled, no flow hockey.
I don't know if the MSHSL has anything like these videos but I suspect if the players, officials and coaches watch these they will be pretty close to what they are trying to do in the MSHSL. Does nayone know if people are being asked to watch these? If so , how many coaches have shown these to the team? How many officials? Not complaining here, I'm just curious...
windows http://usahockey.vo.llnwd.net/o10/SOP_short.wmv
Quicktime http://usahockey.vo.llnwd.net/o10/SOP_short.mov
and even iPod http://usahockey.vo.llnwd.net/o10/Standards_of_Play.m4v
windows http://usahockey.vo.llnwd.net/o10/SOP_short.wmv
Quicktime http://usahockey.vo.llnwd.net/o10/SOP_short.mov
and even iPod http://usahockey.vo.llnwd.net/o10/Standards_of_Play.m4v
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hshockeyfan91
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Good points
DumpandChanse, I absolutely agree with you that being a ref is a hard job. I 100% agree with you that not every ref - even the world's best - will get every call. And truthfully, things probably do even out. At the end of the season I doubt the teams that don't go to state will be left out because of bad calls. While weird things can happen in any one game, over the course of the season the best teams win and the weaker ones do not.
Also true, that just like the HS girls players are not NHL caliber, the refs probably aren't either - so I don't expect perfection from the players or the refs.
My point is, however, that just calling additional random penalties does not help anyone. There is zero doubt that more penalties are being called this season. If the refs at this level are not able to make the calls that fit the new emphasis - I understand - I might very well have a hard time doing that too. But don't just call more penalties for the sake of making more calls.
And finally, I hear a tone in your responses that you feel that we're not supposed to say anything about refs. I have not ripped into any specific refs. I thought the point of a forum like this was to be able to discuss issues. Clearly the emphasis on the officiating was supposed to change this year. The point of this thread is to discuss the issue of whether it actually has, and if so in what ways. I think the officiating has changed, but from what I've seen so far it's been more destructive than constructive for the game. To me that seems like a valid point to comment on. I didn't understand that I had to be an expert at something before I could offer any comments. Sorry about that.
Finally, I don't know that refs are, or are not, on this forum. Is there another forum that refs view? Is there another place where this topic would be better to discuss?
Also true, that just like the HS girls players are not NHL caliber, the refs probably aren't either - so I don't expect perfection from the players or the refs.
My point is, however, that just calling additional random penalties does not help anyone. There is zero doubt that more penalties are being called this season. If the refs at this level are not able to make the calls that fit the new emphasis - I understand - I might very well have a hard time doing that too. But don't just call more penalties for the sake of making more calls.
And finally, I hear a tone in your responses that you feel that we're not supposed to say anything about refs. I have not ripped into any specific refs. I thought the point of a forum like this was to be able to discuss issues. Clearly the emphasis on the officiating was supposed to change this year. The point of this thread is to discuss the issue of whether it actually has, and if so in what ways. I think the officiating has changed, but from what I've seen so far it's been more destructive than constructive for the game. To me that seems like a valid point to comment on. I didn't understand that I had to be an expert at something before I could offer any comments. Sorry about that.
Finally, I don't know that refs are, or are not, on this forum. Is there another forum that refs view? Is there another place where this topic would be better to discuss?
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hockeyrube7
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I agree with 91, we are just discussing thoughts and feeling hear, not solving the issues. There are other platforms for that!
That being said, I would love to see the game called by the same rules the NHL has gone with, but the case is that, that is not what we are seeing, so far at least. The reff's do need time to adjust also, but 91 makes some great points that there seems to be an effort to make "more" calls, not necessarily the right ones. Good or bad reffing can be excepted, if they were simply to be consistant through out each game. I reffed in many other sports, and the same theme rings through in those sports too, but I have to say it is much more apparent in girls hockey that the game is called completely different in the last 5 minutes, than the first, especially in a tight game. Constancy, Constancy, Constancy......
No "bashing" going on here, the reff's are all doing the best they can, and thank heavens for them all, or where would we be.
That being said, I would love to see the game called by the same rules the NHL has gone with, but the case is that, that is not what we are seeing, so far at least. The reff's do need time to adjust also, but 91 makes some great points that there seems to be an effort to make "more" calls, not necessarily the right ones. Good or bad reffing can be excepted, if they were simply to be consistant through out each game. I reffed in many other sports, and the same theme rings through in those sports too, but I have to say it is much more apparent in girls hockey that the game is called completely different in the last 5 minutes, than the first, especially in a tight game. Constancy, Constancy, Constancy......
No "bashing" going on here, the reff's are all doing the best they can, and thank heavens for them all, or where would we be.
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dumpandchase
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I didn't realize I was just talking to you. There are posts on this thread that rip on officials. And I'm trying to generalize my thoughts.
I feel I am a unique position to comment on officiating, I officiated for 10 years, and now I've coached girls hockey for a couple of years.
I've been on both sides of confrontations as an official dealing with coaches, players, and fans. And I've been that coach that is frustrated by officiating. In my experience, getting upset at what an official calls isn't going to change what he calls. It will just make him angry. Talking to the officials, asking them what they saw, and giving your interpretation of what happened are more productive ways to go about changing things.
The key to this is to not try to do it when you are angry, for the most part officials are part of our communities who we see at the rinks or in the community. If you act like the ignorant fan who is trying to learn there isn't an official in Minnesota who won't talk to you, he can give his explanation and you can give your interpretation of the rules. If you go into a conversation thinking that you are right and no other opinion is you're not going to get very far.
The most important thing when it comes to games is that kids need to be able to adapt to officiating. Officials are a necessary part of the game. You won't get the same interpretation from the same person from day to day let alone from many different people. So the players need to be adaptable. Because the interpretation of rules will often change all I've ever asked of officials is that they work hard and get in position. Judgement calls your not going to be able to change but there is no excuse for not working hard.
My main issue is that we are 3 weeks into the season and teams are still trying to play like they were in the past, and not making an attempt to change. We went from over 10 penalties a game our first week to 4 the last two weeks. Not because the officials changed, we changed our game. And until the kids change the way they play then there will be people coming on this board ripping officials.
I feel I am a unique position to comment on officiating, I officiated for 10 years, and now I've coached girls hockey for a couple of years.
I've been on both sides of confrontations as an official dealing with coaches, players, and fans. And I've been that coach that is frustrated by officiating. In my experience, getting upset at what an official calls isn't going to change what he calls. It will just make him angry. Talking to the officials, asking them what they saw, and giving your interpretation of what happened are more productive ways to go about changing things.
The key to this is to not try to do it when you are angry, for the most part officials are part of our communities who we see at the rinks or in the community. If you act like the ignorant fan who is trying to learn there isn't an official in Minnesota who won't talk to you, he can give his explanation and you can give your interpretation of the rules. If you go into a conversation thinking that you are right and no other opinion is you're not going to get very far.
The most important thing when it comes to games is that kids need to be able to adapt to officiating. Officials are a necessary part of the game. You won't get the same interpretation from the same person from day to day let alone from many different people. So the players need to be adaptable. Because the interpretation of rules will often change all I've ever asked of officials is that they work hard and get in position. Judgement calls your not going to be able to change but there is no excuse for not working hard.
My main issue is that we are 3 weeks into the season and teams are still trying to play like they were in the past, and not making an attempt to change. We went from over 10 penalties a game our first week to 4 the last two weeks. Not because the officials changed, we changed our game. And until the kids change the way they play then there will be people coming on this board ripping officials.
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hshockeyfan91
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I agree
I agree with the comments by both hockeyrube and dumpandchase. Lets see what develops over time.
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hockeyrube7
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Dump:
I couldn't agree more! Well stated, and I didn't think you were speaking to me directly at all. I have been on both sides of the issue myself, and when officiating, I have been as far as to have been threatened with my life over a call, in a meaningless game, but that was many years ago now, and in another sport. The sad part was that this was from a good friend at the time. Made me realize back then, just what you are saying, as a fan and as a coach or a player, there is no place to go bezerk on them, they are people.
The whole point is, it is too early to be too hard on the officials. They are doing the best they can, and they also need time to adjust. And the one theme that I ring through in every post is be constistant. A hook at minute one, is a hook at minute 51. Example: In a summer game I was coaching, a reff let a full out check go, and at least should have been interference. I asked him, and I quote, "Did you not see the interference at the blue line?", his reply, "Yes I saw it, and yes it was interference, but I am not going to make that call this early in the game." This is a reff that I have seen reffiing HS games in the past. I did not say another word to the ref. But tell me how is that calling the game by the rules? Isn't that what all of the "New Interpretation" of the rules is all about. And these are some of the things that are occurring now, but it is very early yet. On this reff's behalf, he did stay true to his word and began calling the same play in the middle of the game.
I couldn't agree more! Well stated, and I didn't think you were speaking to me directly at all. I have been on both sides of the issue myself, and when officiating, I have been as far as to have been threatened with my life over a call, in a meaningless game, but that was many years ago now, and in another sport. The sad part was that this was from a good friend at the time. Made me realize back then, just what you are saying, as a fan and as a coach or a player, there is no place to go bezerk on them, they are people.
The whole point is, it is too early to be too hard on the officials. They are doing the best they can, and they also need time to adjust. And the one theme that I ring through in every post is be constistant. A hook at minute one, is a hook at minute 51. Example: In a summer game I was coaching, a reff let a full out check go, and at least should have been interference. I asked him, and I quote, "Did you not see the interference at the blue line?", his reply, "Yes I saw it, and yes it was interference, but I am not going to make that call this early in the game." This is a reff that I have seen reffiing HS games in the past. I did not say another word to the ref. But tell me how is that calling the game by the rules? Isn't that what all of the "New Interpretation" of the rules is all about. And these are some of the things that are occurring now, but it is very early yet. On this reff's behalf, he did stay true to his word and began calling the same play in the middle of the game.
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hockeyrube7
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- Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:29 pm
If they are calling things tighter, I don't think all the reffs got the message.
I watched two completely different reffed games this past weekend. One in which they called it much like they are going to, very tight, and called all the impedence penalties, very fair, just very tight. (Penalties were around 25 or so, took two sheets to complete the game. The other they called it completely the opposite, only four penalties total, and there was more impedence than any other game I have seen. This one was also called fairly even, just nothing near tight.
No big point, just an answer to the original question, and I think it is going to depend on the reffing crew as to how each game will go.
Question comes to mind though, are the kids expected to adjust this quickly to that drastic of a change (especially 7th and 8th graders)? I think they can, but that is tough if one coach teaches a physical style of hockey. This may be partly why we are seeing some interesting scores roll in I think?
I watched two completely different reffed games this past weekend. One in which they called it much like they are going to, very tight, and called all the impedence penalties, very fair, just very tight. (Penalties were around 25 or so, took two sheets to complete the game. The other they called it completely the opposite, only four penalties total, and there was more impedence than any other game I have seen. This one was also called fairly even, just nothing near tight.
No big point, just an answer to the original question, and I think it is going to depend on the reffing crew as to how each game will go.
Question comes to mind though, are the kids expected to adjust this quickly to that drastic of a change (especially 7th and 8th graders)? I think they can, but that is tough if one coach teaches a physical style of hockey. This may be partly why we are seeing some interesting scores roll in I think?