"Watcher", watch out for the fence,.....if your feet slip, you may end up with one leg on each side of the fence.
Not everyone can be a champion,....in fact there is only one champion,....we just need to find a way to determine the champion. In the "old days", we seemed to be able to accomplish that, with single class tournaments.
The question is,....should it be the responsibility of adult coaches/ADs/MSHSL board members to make it easier for athletes/teams to become a "champion",......or should it be the athlete/teams responsibility to find a way to achieve a championship, if desired?
With regard to football, if you don't have the numbers,....you play nine-man, a different game,....that's what it is for,....become a champion. Regarding basketball, there have been many very small towns with phenomenal teams basketball teams that have competed and won championships.
We can't all be champions. Lets at least find out who it is each year, rather than having 2 to 5 to debate over. We used to be able to do it.
Multiple Classes?
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
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HShockeywatcher
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I think that's so true. Good idea with football too. Should that be the only sport with 2 classes? 11 man and 9 man?
Okay, so let's live in the imaginary world where we have 1 class in all sports except football who has two. Sweet. So how do playoffs work? If it went to one class, maybe the current A would play 9 man, but the rest would play 11 man probably. That'd be a really long section/state playoff. Or do you have to have a winning record to play in sections? Or what?
Okay, so let's live in the imaginary world where we have 1 class in all sports except football who has two. Sweet. So how do playoffs work? If it went to one class, maybe the current A would play 9 man, but the rest would play 11 man probably. That'd be a really long section/state playoff. Or do you have to have a winning record to play in sections? Or what?
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HShockeywatcher
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Finding a real champion is the best idea I think, in most cases. I think there is only one con to it, and that is the idea of play time. One thing having more classes does is let more kids play more games. It rewards the better players with more games. Not saying that's reason not to have it though.
So, what about college then? Should there be different classes in college? The demographics of college teams and where the athletes come from are a lot different. Should there be one true champion there too?
So, what about college then? Should there be different classes in college? The demographics of college teams and where the athletes come from are a lot different. Should there be one true champion there too?
The concept is really quite easy.
Watcher,
It is not 2 classes in football,.....9 man and 11 man are two different games,.....a champion for each. Schools play one or the other,...or both, if they have coaches for separate teams,....who cares?
If your thinking every football team should playoff, after the season ends,.....you're nuts. Conference champions, playoff for a single championship. If you don't win the conference,...."season's over". Independent teams, if any, can be seeded in, if record and quality of opponents are worthy of a conference champion. But emphasis should be to get in a conference, if you want an opportunity for post season play.
Yes, if you win more, you play more games. Is there a better incentive than that? Not "fair",....I know,....to bad (the best surgeon gets to perform more surgerys, too.).
College,...like 9 man vs 11 man,.....DIII is different than DI,.....DIII no scholarships, DI scholarships,....different rules, different game,.....champion for each game. It is not different classes for the SAME game,....like is being done for HS sports.
Besides, lets face, it for the most part your HS is the one where you happen to live. Not many families truly make a conscious effort to buy a house at the best school for the kids to attend, even if they could see into the future. College is different,.....it is truly researched and choosen (or should be),....based on numerous factors, including the level of sports competition.
It is not 2 classes in football,.....9 man and 11 man are two different games,.....a champion for each. Schools play one or the other,...or both, if they have coaches for separate teams,....who cares?
If your thinking every football team should playoff, after the season ends,.....you're nuts. Conference champions, playoff for a single championship. If you don't win the conference,...."season's over". Independent teams, if any, can be seeded in, if record and quality of opponents are worthy of a conference champion. But emphasis should be to get in a conference, if you want an opportunity for post season play.
Yes, if you win more, you play more games. Is there a better incentive than that? Not "fair",....I know,....to bad (the best surgeon gets to perform more surgerys, too.).
College,...like 9 man vs 11 man,.....DIII is different than DI,.....DIII no scholarships, DI scholarships,....different rules, different game,.....champion for each game. It is not different classes for the SAME game,....like is being done for HS sports.
Besides, lets face, it for the most part your HS is the one where you happen to live. Not many families truly make a conscious effort to buy a house at the best school for the kids to attend, even if they could see into the future. College is different,.....it is truly researched and choosen (or should be),....based on numerous factors, including the level of sports competition.
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HShockeywatcher
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The college thing I agree with for the most part. Not going to go into that much though because it would be long.
Good point about the best surgeon. Not saying it's a bad thing, just saying at this level for a lot of people it's more about letting kids play and having games than anything else.
As far as your conference thing, I don't think that would work either. Conferences are currently made so you play with other schools in your region around your size. A current 5A team winning and moving on isn't the same as a current 2A team winning their conference and moving on.
Here's what I think:
Right now there are 6 class, each with 8 sections, most sections with 8 teams, which works out to be 384 teams. If you assume that 2 of those classes would play 9 man, you're at 256 teams. Now we have 6 post season games for the winners.
So... Let's make sections have 32 teams apiece and be made completely by region, with no concern for size and just have 8 sections play. All section finals and state games would be at the Metro Dome. We end up with one winner after 8 games.
We could do this the same for all sports.
Good point about the best surgeon. Not saying it's a bad thing, just saying at this level for a lot of people it's more about letting kids play and having games than anything else.
As far as your conference thing, I don't think that would work either. Conferences are currently made so you play with other schools in your region around your size. A current 5A team winning and moving on isn't the same as a current 2A team winning their conference and moving on.
Here's what I think:
Right now there are 6 class, each with 8 sections, most sections with 8 teams, which works out to be 384 teams. If you assume that 2 of those classes would play 9 man, you're at 256 teams. Now we have 6 post season games for the winners.
So... Let's make sections have 32 teams apiece and be made completely by region, with no concern for size and just have 8 sections play. All section finals and state games would be at the Metro Dome. We end up with one winner after 8 games.
We could do this the same for all sports.
HS Football
No....in football......win your conference, then play on, only. I don't want to see (nor do they deserve it) the 0-8 team play the 8-0 team again (it was probably bad enough the watch the first time). Besides, I am pretty sure after going 0-8 in the season, they are ready to be done, anyway. Competetive spirit is one thing,....reality is another.
As for all other teams with better records,.....again, win your conference,.....so you get to play on.
The other sports have all teams play off,....that's fine.
As for all other teams with better records,.....again, win your conference,.....so you get to play on.
The other sports have all teams play off,....that's fine.
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HShockeywatcher
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You're confusing conferences with sections. You can't be saying that the winner of the Park Region or Iron Range conferences, for example, are better deserving of going on than the 2nd place teams in the Missota and Lake Conferences, for example, are you? Because anyone knows that would be absurd.
I see your point, but an 0-8 team from the Lake conference is much different than an 0-8 team from, well, just about anywhere else in the state. To fairly do what you're saying you'd have to change conferences so they had different schools of different sizes, which would never work. In maxpreps rankings this year the Lake conference had 6 teams in the top 25 and Missota with 4. Or, for example, Holy Angels was 4-4 going into the post season two years ago when they got 2nd in state. Coming out of a good conference shouldn't hinder your postseason play.
You'd have to do a bracket of some sort. And you could have the first games be 2 in a week or something and then after a week those teams you say don't deserve to be there would be weeded out.
I see your point, but an 0-8 team from the Lake conference is much different than an 0-8 team from, well, just about anywhere else in the state. To fairly do what you're saying you'd have to change conferences so they had different schools of different sizes, which would never work. In maxpreps rankings this year the Lake conference had 6 teams in the top 25 and Missota with 4. Or, for example, Holy Angels was 4-4 going into the post season two years ago when they got 2nd in state. Coming out of a good conference shouldn't hinder your postseason play.
You'd have to do a bracket of some sort. And you could have the first games be 2 in a week or something and then after a week those teams you say don't deserve to be there would be weeded out.
Not sure why I am wasting my time,but....
A conference is a conference,.....and a section is a section,....I know the difference, trust me.
In football, it is primarily about the 8 game regular season. However, let's reward all conference champs with an opportunity to win a State Championship, and have a playoff to establish a Champion.
Forget about fairness,......forget anyone's opinion of who deserves to go,....set a criteria (say only conference champs),....and go with it.
No, you don't play 2 football games in a week,....that is one reason why you don't have a huge elaborate playoff system. Reward the conference champs,....have a playoff to determine a Champion,.....move on to hockey season.
In football, it is primarily about the 8 game regular season. However, let's reward all conference champs with an opportunity to win a State Championship, and have a playoff to establish a Champion.
Forget about fairness,......forget anyone's opinion of who deserves to go,....set a criteria (say only conference champs),....and go with it.
No, you don't play 2 football games in a week,....that is one reason why you don't have a huge elaborate playoff system. Reward the conference champs,....have a playoff to determine a Champion,.....move on to hockey season.
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HShockeywatcher
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It is great to be alive.
It won't happen? 
Well lets quit wasting time,.....and get back to work then.
Well lets quit wasting time,.....and get back to work then.-
Can't Never Tried
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HShockeywatcher
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Knowlzee, it amuses me so much how when people PM with me they agree with things I say but then when you're in a thread you go with with the crowd. It's like you guys are the popular kids and you don't mind having a conversation if no one knows about it but in front of everyone else there's no way you'd be caught dead agreeing. Quite funny.
Why suggest something in the "it won't happen" category? As I have been reminded on many an occasion, the post season is different from the season. No bearing on each other. Everyone starts the post season 0-0. Once you get a number in the L column, you're done. (unless you play baseball, but we'll ignore them) Why would you have it be different here?
Why suggest something in the "it won't happen" category? As I have been reminded on many an occasion, the post season is different from the season. No bearing on each other. Everyone starts the post season 0-0. Once you get a number in the L column, you're done. (unless you play baseball, but we'll ignore them) Why would you have it be different here?
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HShockeywatcher
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Can't Never Tried
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Have you considered politics? HSWHShockeywatcher wrote:Exactly. We finally got the the part of the thread where you put in an unrealistic thought and act like I have no idea what I'm talking about when I say it is unrealistic. It was a great analogy.
My point is... that you take subjects around and around to the point where there is no satisfactory solution, ever! or if there ever is one then you turn it in another direction, or say yeah but what about.....?
You would be "All Conference" in debate!
First of all, glad you are amused,....even the watcher needs a laugh, once in a while.
With regards to "agreeing" with you,.....I don't know how you get that impression,.....because 90% of the time, I don't understand what you have said. How can anyone agree (or disagree), if they don't understand?
Yeah, Knowlzee is the "popular" guy,.....right,.....always going "with the crowd". Now that's amusing.
You may have some disagreement with the "popular Kids" on that one.
Regarding, "it won't happen",......reread the PM. For everyone else,...."it won't happen" primarily because we sit back, and are pretty comfortable,....and basically let the education system (including HS sports) do whatever they feel like,.....even though we are the paying customer. However, being the customer, we do have tremendous power to make change, if we voiced some opinion. However, for the most part we just sit back comfortably and watch. Believe me, change "can happen", but it......probably "won't happen",.....until it just gets too ridiculous or out of hand that people finally stand up. At what point is that,....who knows?
With regards to "agreeing" with you,.....I don't know how you get that impression,.....because 90% of the time, I don't understand what you have said. How can anyone agree (or disagree), if they don't understand?
Yeah, Knowlzee is the "popular" guy,.....right,.....always going "with the crowd". Now that's amusing.
You may have some disagreement with the "popular Kids" on that one.Regarding, "it won't happen",......reread the PM. For everyone else,...."it won't happen" primarily because we sit back, and are pretty comfortable,....and basically let the education system (including HS sports) do whatever they feel like,.....even though we are the paying customer. However, being the customer, we do have tremendous power to make change, if we voiced some opinion. However, for the most part we just sit back comfortably and watch. Believe me, change "can happen", but it......probably "won't happen",.....until it just gets too ridiculous or out of hand that people finally stand up. At what point is that,....who knows?
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If you get 10% Knowlzee, your way ahead of the rest of us.Knowlzee wrote:regards to "agreeing" with you,.....I don't know how you get that impression,.....because 90% of the time, I don't understand what you have said. How can anyone agree (or disagree), if they don't understand?
I'm done being sucked into any discussion with him.
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HShockeywatcher
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Well, we are in a sports system that operates a certain way; 8 sections, every team gets to play in the post season, and a class system. I for one think that there is no sport in state that needs a class system. The ONLY reason I have put things down is that people try to come up with things like "the sweet 16" or something in a class system that would never happen.
Take your current AA football team. Sure winning state is great, but if all section finals are played in the metrodome (just a suggestion of mine with one class) wouldn't making it there be a much bigger accomplishment since you will have probably actually played some real competition to get there?
Take your current AA football team. Sure winning state is great, but if all section finals are played in the metrodome (just a suggestion of mine with one class) wouldn't making it there be a much bigger accomplishment since you will have probably actually played some real competition to get there?
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