What do you think about St. Thomas?

[AimHigh]

A) Good clean haircuts
B) Fullbacks that can also play hockey
C) A ICE ARENA ?

or...

D) a shooting range steps away from C) A ICE ARENA?

[elliott70]

Is this a correct understanding?

Any player can play in any association if (1) his local assn waives him out; (2) the other assn waive him in and (3) all affected district directors approve.

That is how it works.

But Elliott one of the foundations for Minnesota hockey being structured differently from USA Hockey when it comes to age eligibility is to link the kids to the high schools correctly.

yes

For most sports the new high school rule on transfers (being done by Jan 15 in a kids 8th grade year to avoid penalty) has minimal impact on the kids. But for hockey it does impact the kid because the 8th and 9th grades are usually Bantam years. Shouldn't this be looked at by Minnesota Hockey to be fair to the kids who for legitimate reasons (such as a better education) want to transfer and play hockey?

I am not sure exactly when the open enrollment notificatin has to be made and just how it works with priate schools, but you are right that MH should be looking at it.
Even though I do not favor private school associations, it is something MH needs to consider and find a better method than we have right now. difficult, yes, but necessary.

[frederick61]

Elliott,
I appreciate the response. Remember that a kid can open enroll in public schools in any of the four years of high school. He has to inform the current ISD of his intention to transfer first. Then he has to apply by Jan 15 in the year he would transfer (the fall). The high school he is transferring to has to agree in writing by Feb 22 or thereabouts for the transfer to become official.

If he chooses to go to a private school, he subject to the same rules as if he transferred to a public school. There is no penalty for transferring in the ninth grade (he would be finishing his eight grade in January). But there is a year waiting penalty if he transfers after the ninth grade. Because of the penalty, a kid playing second year peewee has to decide in Jan of the hockey season.

Minnesota High School league tried to mitigate the year penalty by saying he could play one more year at his original school. That would make no sense especially for hockey since most Twin Cities high schools have early practices and special class schedules for kids playing hockey to relieve pressure on ice time.

One way of providing a solution for a public school transfer is to have the kid furnish transfer information to the association supporting the high school. He would then be automatically accepted into the associations bantam program and would be eligible to tryout.

For kids transfering to private schools, there is no supporting hockey association and that is where the problem lies.

[tomASS]

I heard that the Blake Bantam B1 team has landed an awesome coach.
They should have a great season of development.

closed circuit to new coach (new moniker too?) We are still washing the uniforms from Saturday's game - we look like UPS yet

[ninety5]

"I heard that the Blake Bantam B1 team has landed an awesome coach."

That depends entirely on who you ask!

Good luck and let the hockey season and new BB1 thread begin already.

[muckandgrind]

If there are a group of kids who attend school at STA and want to play hockey together, more power to them. Not everyone is happy playing for their local youth association.

[High Flyer]

I agree with you frederick61, as new transfer rule requires each family to make a decision before you enter 9th grade as to whether or not you will choose the public high school path or the private high school path. An with they way the private schools operate, at the latest, you actually need visit the schools in the fall of a students 8th grade year, take the admissions test in Jan., apply for your school of choice so you are accepted in the spring of your 8th grade year.

Since there is already an "official" organizational effort on the part of MH for hockey associations to organize associations by affiliation with a public high schools, a private’s high schools should also be allowed to do the same if they so choose. MH is already allowing one private school in MN to do this.

That’s not to say that the public community based hockey associations should be required to compete against a private school hockey association, as this is a decision that each local hockey association should make.

I also don't believe the private school hockey associations should be allowed the privilege to participate in the "community based" district, regional and state tournaments. But participation in a lcoal district league would another decision made by each community association with in that district and in some cases, could make sense.

So how can this happen? This winter all the metro privates’ schools should consider banding together as a group; discuss organizing individual private school hockey associations, organizing individual school teams, organizing their own league, organizing their own invitational tournaments and organize a season ending tournament. This should start at the Bantam level, continue through U16 and U18 levels if they so choose. For those private schools who have middle school 7-8 graders (if there is enough of them), extend the frame work down to the peewee level. Private schools should also consider organizing their teams by using the USA birth year so that their teams would also be eligible for USA State and National Tournament playoffs (if they so choose).

Next spring the privates should then go to MN Hockey as a "group" with a copy of their 501c3's, an individual private school hockey association applications, league/tournament sanctioning applications and ask MH for their approval. And if MH says NO, just appeal MH decision with USA Hockey.

I still believe it should be with in each individual community based associations control to deny a waiver for a player to leave their community based program for a private school association, but only if there absence prevents the community based association from organizing “one team”.

I also believe it should still be each private schools individual families responsibility to continue to financially support their local community based youth hockey program and this could/should be done with an annual "waiver fee" that is paid back to the youth hockey association. In order to get your waiver to participate with you private school hockey association you need to pay a waiver fee.

[jancze5]

Sorry, MY BAD

The publics hate privates, don't prejudice against them, beat em'

[High Flyer]

Highflyer, are you kidding me with your arrogant, anti-private school, BS rant. Really?

"HOW does anything you mention HELP Minnesota Hockey and the children that are playing the game?

You sound like a Private Hater...

If you really want to break it down, let all the privates field Bantam
teams, put them in the district they are in and let them play A. If you can't handle it now at Bantams, what makes you think you will in 3-4 years at Varsity?

The publics hate privates, then don't prejudice against them, beat em'

Actually Janze5, I think you are totally missing my point. First of all, I'm not a private hater, as all my children are in private schools

Secondly, I'm not a community hockey hater either, and as MH has done a great job with this model.

My issue/point/concern etc.. is that I was trying to make in this long post was three folded:

a) if MH is already using high school boarders for how a hockey association organize, it is not a un-realistic concept or request for a private school to organize youth hockey teams under the same frame work

b) Seems like the biggest biggest objection to a private school organizes youth hockey teams is coming from local communities objecting to competition vs. a private, because they would be multi community talent pool based or "all star" teams. So if that is the issue, let the privates organize and just play vs. them selves or the communities who want to compete vs. them

c) Last point, the system/proceedor/precident/rules are already in place that can allow that to happen, as one private school in MN is already opperating this way.

[elliott70]

Since there is already an "official" organizational effort on the part of MH for hockey associations to organize associations by affiliation with a public high schools, a private’s high schools should also be allowed to do the same if they so choose.

Not true.

MH is already allowing one private school in MN to do this.

Blake is the only one left and was given notice that they will terminate.
Shattuck is a different story.

That’s not to say that the public community based hockey associations should be required to compete against a private school hockey association, as this is a decision that each local hockey association should make.

Not true.

I also don't believe the private school hockey associations should be allowed the privilege to participate in the "community based" district, regional and state tournaments.

Not true

So how can this happen? This winter all the metro privates’ schools should consider banding together as a group; discuss organizing individual private school hockey associations, organizing individual school teams, organizing their own league, organizing their own invitational tournaments and organize a season ending tournament. This should start at the Bantam level, continue through U16 and U18 levels if they so choose. For those private schools who have middle school 7-8 graders (if there is enough of them), extend the frame work down to the peewee level.

This would/could be an option.

Private schools should also consider organizing their teams by using the USA birth year so that their teams would also be eligible for USA State and National Tournament playoffs (if they so choose).

To participate at USA Hockey levels they would have to register with MH.

Next spring the privates should then go to MN Hockey as a "group" with a copy of their 501c3's, an individual private school hockey association applications, league/tournament sanctioning applications and ask MH for their approval. And if MH says NO, just appeal MH decision with USA Hockey.

This ahs been done by other groups and USA Hockey ahs said follow MH rules.

I still believe it should be with in each individual community based associations control to deny a waiver for a player to leave their community based program for a private school association,

For the most part this is true.

but only if there absence prevents the community based association from organizing “one team”.

I also believe it should still be each private schools individual families responsibility to continue to financially support their local community based youth hockey program and this could/should be done with an annual "waiver fee" that is paid back to the youth hockey association. In order to get your waiver to participate with you private school hockey association you need to pay a waiver fee.

Although not all the base facts are correct, it is a good post looking at how to allow for other avenues of playing hockey.
Thanks, High Flyer.

[cclavin]

Elliot: Why hasn't MN Hockey made a decision regarding privates? It seems they push this back to the districts and associations. To me - at least from what I gather reading this site, MN hockey continues to expand upon the gray area they've created instead of saying yes or no and moving forward.

Thanks for all you do.....MN hockey would not be as successful as it is without people like you giving your time, energy, & expertise. Job well done, thank you, and I hope you are able to continue. Yes this should be in the other thread, but I'm to lazy to deliver over there.

[elliott70]

Elliot: Why hasn't MN Hockey made a decision regarding privates? It seems they push this back to the districts and associations. To me - at least from what I gather reading this site, MN hockey continues to expand upon the gray area they've created instead of saying yes or no and moving forward.

Thanks for all you do.....MN hockey would not be as successful as it is without people like you giving your time, energy, & expertise. Job well done, thank you, and I hope you are able to continue. Yes this should be in the other thread, but I'm to lazy to deliver over there.

MN Hockey action was to say 'No' to those organizations requesting an affilate agreement that did not represent a 'community based organization' based on our 'somewhat' unwritten definition of that term.

Those being told no were St Thomas and ???.
Blake was told no but because of their positive history and the fact that they had plans for the coming season they were extended with a sunset (this year or next???).

MH President had instructed the planning committee via the discernemtn committee to have some sort of preliminary answer at the spring 2008 meeting. There wasn't one. So most people went with their gut (historical) instinct and said no to something that may have negative connotations for the existing 'community based' programs.

So the current policy is no private school associations.

Now, St Thomas (as to what they are trying to do this year) is not an association. Prior Lake is allowing transfers to their organization with the intent of putting certain players together to form a team with a basis of St Thomas students. They will be a Prior Lake team under D6.
(If they get the players via waivers.)

[sorno82]

The more I hear about this stuff, the more it makes me wonder why common sense does not prevail.

Let private schools form teams with kids that go to their school. It should be that simple. The should play in the district that they are located in. It is no different than the current public school criteria. Let them form A or B teams based on their skill level and numbers.

This accomplishes a couple of things:

It frees up people to actually work on hockey related stuff. It also frees up spaces on the association teams for kids that will actually go to that high school. For example, why force a kid to play on the Edina Bantam A team when they are going to play at Blake anyway? Let him give up the spot to a kid who may flourish given the chance.

It is about opportunity and increasing opportunities is a good thing. If parents want to spend $X thousands of dollars to go to a private school, then they should be able to play on a representative bantam team (or peewee if they have a 6th and 7th grade). Too much time and effort is being wasted on this when they should let common sense prevail.

[elliott70]

The more I hear about this stuff, the more it makes me wonder why common sense does not prevail.

Let private schools form teams with kids that go to their school. It should be that simple. The should play in the district that they are located in. It is no different than the current public school criteria. Let them form A or B teams based on their skill level and numbers.

There is no public school criteria. It seems to be falling that way, but there is no such policy.
All possiblities need to be considered which does not make it that simple.


This accomplishes a couple of things:

It frees up people to actually work on hockey related stuff. It also frees up spaces on the association teams for kids that will actually go to that high school. For example, why force a kid to play on the Edina Bantam A team when they are going to play at Blake anyway? Let him give up the spot to a kid who may flourish given the chance.

It is about opportunity and increasing opportunities is a good thing. If parents want to spend $X thousands of dollars to go to a private school, then they should be able to play on a representative bantam team (or peewee if they have a 6th and 7th grade). Too much time and effort is being wasted on this when they should let common sense prevail.

[sorno82]

Make it simple. If you reside in the school district, then you should must play in that district. The only exception is if you choose to attend a private school, then you can participate in their pre-high school hockey program.

Don't change the waiver policy.

This eliminates the potential madness of open enrolling elementary school kids and allows kids to play with their classmates.

Policy written, now vote on it. Keep it simple to eliminate confusion and wild interpretations.

[muckandgrind]

Make it simple. If you reside in the school district, then you should must play in that district. The only exception is if you choose to attend a private school, then you can participate in their pre-high school hockey program.

Don't change the waiver policy.

This eliminates the potential madness of open enrolling elementary school kids and allows kids to play with their classmates.

Policy written, now vote on it. Keep it simple to eliminate confusion and wild interpretations.

School districts and hockey districts are not the same thing. Our school district falls into two separate hockey districts.

[sorno82]

School district, hockey district -whatever. Basically if you live in the association boundary-play there. The exception is if you attend a private school with a hockey program, you can play there if you choose.

This should not be that difficult.

[muckandgrind]

School district, hockey district -whatever. Basically if you live in the association boundary-play there. The exception is if you attend a private school with a hockey program, you can play there if you choose.

This should not be that difficult.

It's not that difficult to understand, because that's the current system. The only way a kid can play for another association within or without their district is through waivers.

Some associations are more liberal handing out waivers and some aren't.

I just wish there were more options outside of MN Hockey for kids.

[cclavin]

Now, St Thomas (as to what they are trying to do this year) is not an association. Prior Lake is allowing transfers to their organization with the intent of putting certain players together to form a team with a basis of St Thomas students. They will be a Prior Lake team under D6.
(If they get the players via waivers.)

Understood - I guess this is my point (kind of). Instead of saying no across the board MN hockey said no to affiliate agreements so they are not preventing teams from being formed - thus putting the onus on the districts and associations to interpret what MH means (or wants). Under MH's current guidelines if a group can get an association and district to go agree theoratically any special team can be formed.

I can't say I'm against the private school idea, there is at least a certain amount of restriction based on school attendance. By not clarifying who can or can't be an association and what kinds of teams an association can sponsor MH is opening itself up to all star teams being created under the name of any association willing to pimp itself out to whomever is willing to pay.

[sorno82]

Not really-private school kids would not need waivers, and Blake, St. Thomas could have "A" teams if they wish. Blake goes into district 6, Breck, Providence, and Benilde go int District 3, etc.

[frederick61]

Make it simple. If you reside in the school district, then you should must play in that district. The only exception is if you choose to attend a private school, then you can participate in their pre-high school hockey program.

Don't change the waiver policy.

This eliminates the potential madness of open enrolling elementary school kids and allows kids to play with their classmates.

Policy written, now vote on it. Keep it simple to eliminate confusion and wild interpretations.

Remember, the issue is should Minnesota Hockey adjust its rules to line up with the newly changed Minnesota High School rules on transfers? Elliott believes they need to be addressed and I believe they need to be addressed first from the kid's point of view so that a kid, who want to get a better education at a different high school then the high school where they live, can still play hockey.

This means the current Minnesota Hockey rules that effect bantam aged kids has to be "re-tooled" by Minnesota Hockey to align with their philosophy of supporting Minnesota High Schools.

[EagleGuy91]

I heard that the Blake Bantam B1 team has landed an awesome coach.
They should have a great season of development.

closed circuit to new coach (new moniker too?) We are still washing the uniforms from Saturday's game - we look like UPS yet

Nice to see that you two haven't lost your internet connection as much as you've lost your frequent proximity to the corner glass and bench respectively. Keep me out of the STA discussion, I'm new here.

FYI TwoCheeks - it's gonna take a truckload of Tide sticks!!

[freighttrain]

Something interesting I found in the D8 minutes from August.

"Move that, District 8 will not waiver a player outside of District 8 unless all reasonable playing opportunities within District 8 have been exhausted. This policy does not apply to existing agreements or established practices prior to September 1, 2008. Passed.

Move that, no District 8 team shall be allowed to schedule a game, scrimmage or host/invite to a tournament any team that has been identified by the District 8 Director and/or Registrar as a team, with Minnesota Hockey eligible players, that has not complied with Minnesota Hockey’s waiver policy. Teams and/or associations that are found in violation of this policy are subject to further disciplinary action from District 8. This does apply to the incidental playing of a non-compliant team as part of a tournament hosted outside of District 8. "

I know that the whole Saint Thomas deal isn't well liked in D8. I have heard of a few associations aren't happy about it because of the prospects of losing kids.

One question I have is about the latter of the two motions. How will teams know which teams are in violation of this rule.

[freighttrain]

Elliot:

Now, St Thomas (as to what they are trying to do this year) is not an association. Prior Lake is allowing transfers to their organization with the intent of putting certain players together to form a team with a basis of St Thomas students. They will be a Prior Lake team under D6.
(If they get the players via waivers.)

I could see this whole thing becoming a big mess. I coach at the Jr Gold B level and Saint Thomas is planning on having a team this year at the B level. I know some associations are sometimes low on numbers and need players to waive in from places that dont have teams to fill teams and now if said association is already low and a few kids want waivers out of a association that has Jr Gold to play for Saint Thomas I could see them saying no.

[Rocket78]

Something interesting I found in the D8 minutes from August.

"Move that, District 8 will not waiver a player outside of District 8 unless all reasonable playing opportunities within District 8 have been exhausted. This policy does not apply to existing agreements or established practices prior to September 1, 2008. Passed.

Move that, no District 8 team shall be allowed to schedule a game, scrimmage or host/invite to a tournament any team that has been identified by the District 8 Director and/or Registrar as a team, with Minnesota Hockey eligible players, that has not complied with Minnesota Hockey’s waiver policy. Teams and/or associations that are found in violation of this policy are subject to further disciplinary action from District 8. This does apply to the incidental playing of a non-compliant team as part of a tournament hosted outside of District 8. "

I know that the whole Saint Thomas deal isn't well liked in D8. I have heard of a few associations aren't happy about it because of the prospects of losing kids.

One question I have is about the latter of the two motions. How will teams know which teams are in violation of this rule.

You could ask to look at their book. Waivers should be in there and you can look at the address listed on the roster form. If the AAA team is cheating and is good at it, you will never know and would not be held accountable.