Biggest Rivalry in the State

[HShockeywatcher]

What criteria are we using for biggest rivalry? If it is all time, the list would look very different than current. My current list would be:
1. Public/Private
2. HM/WBL
3. STA/CDH
4. East/Cloquet
5. Warroad/Roseau

1. Public/Private. Everyone knows this. This spans hockey and high school and is something we see in all of our communities. I was all private schooled and regardless of the sport or who was better, chants were constantly public/private. Nothing to do with the team, the sport, or anything relevant to the game at hand, simply about the type of school. You run into coworkers, people at gas stations, anywhere, and if high school sports are brought up, recruiting gets brought up.
2. Everyone knows how good the Hill Murray program is. The White Bear program is good as well. These two teams share an arena so home is only has them wearing a different color jersey. They are in the same section and both play in the Schwan Cup. Both two big AA schools and Aldrich gets packed whenever they play. I don't think in current hockey considering the ability and class of these two much compares.
3. Like em' or hate em', Cretin high school and St Thomas Academy have been around since the late 1800s. They have been playing sports for much of that. I won't bore anyone with the history of the schools, but being situated only miles apart whenever these two play any athletic event you must get there early to get a seat. Now that St Thomas' hockey team has improved much, they play every year. This hockey rivalry wouldn't even make the list if it was all time, but as the A and AA 2006 state champions whose game is televised by FSN every year, this is one of the biggest rivalries in all of sports and the venues get packed soon. Always a good game.
4. I was not in town to attend the game recently but it sounded great. They play twice a year are both AA schools in the same section. Both teams are usually quite talented. In addition this rivalry comes complete with a "big city"/small town feel as well. No matter the talent of these teams fans will show up to cheer the teams on and the players will play their hardest.
5. History shows us these are probably two of the top all time programs in the history of the state. Just 20 miles apart these programs are huge rivals. These two are not in the same section or class, but they are in the same conference and play twice a year. Although probably biased, there have been many articles calling this the state's biggest sports rivalry. Roseau has decided to move up to AA but there are years Warroad is one of the top teams in state regardless of class. This rivalry will probably never die.

[karl(east)]

Spoken like a true idiot. Where do i start? First of all it's roseau that has the little old rink. Warroad has a big new arena. Pretty one sided? I'm guessing you're thinking roseau has been dominant. Why don't you go back 20 years and see who's record is better. Third, have you been to a game? You tell me how much tension is gone....

Thank you for deigning to call me an idiot. That sure put me in my place.

1. Yes, I blew a detail on the Warroad Ice Gardens. Thank you for catching that. But I do not see how this in any way supports the argument you are trying to make.

2. Of course Warroad has had its periods of dominance in the rivalry; I could have told that without looking at any scores. Rivalries don't become rivalries without some basis of highly-charged competition. But I was assuming that the creator of this thread wanted to know what the best rivalry is today, not in 1988, which predates my birth. If I misinterpreted that, my bad. But if I didn't it's hard to deny this rivalry has been pretty one-sided lately.

I consider continued competitiveness to be an essential element of a high-quality rivalry. Perhaps you feel differently. Perhaps you have a different definition of a rivalry, which I would enjoy hearing.

I've been around a decent number of rivalries in my life. When we're out of hockey season, I live and die Yankees baseball (don't ask how that happened to a Minnesotan...but it did). The Yankees' rivalry with the Red Sox is huge, as everyone knows, perhaps the best in professional sports. But 10 years ago, when all was right in the universe and the Yankees consistently slaughtered the Red Sox, the rivalry wasn't nearly as engaging. While there was still plenty of hatred on the local level, particularly up in Boston, where they were rather sick of losing, it just wasn't as captivating, especially to Yankees fans. The Red Sox were just another team that was a bit more obnoxious than some of the others on the march to another pennant.

Should East-Cloquet move into a period over the next five years in which one team consistently beats up on the other, naturally some other rivalry will surpass it, even in my eyes.

3. Perhaps you wish to argue that Roseau-Warroad's ability to consistently captivate local fans on both sides in spite of the recent imbalance is an indication of its strength, which I would consider to be a good counter-argument. But now I'm making your arguments for you.

To this hypothetical situation, I would respond by noting that should this status quo endure (which I definitely do not expect), people will gradually start losing interest. Some sort of Yankees-Sox-pre-2004 Syndrome will emerge. There's also the statewide exposure aspect. People will, naturally, be far more drawn to rivalries that are competitive. When the aura around the game (atmosphere, fans, history, etc.) starts to exceed the quality of the action on the ice, the game is on life support. All that stuff is excellent and I love it all, but the game takes precedence.

4. I did not say that any tension has left the games. The phrase "the two teams aren't even in the same class, which kills a lot of the tension" is written in the present tense, which does not imply that the tension used to be there and is no longer, as you seem to have construed it. I'm sure the atmosphere in each arena is just as intense as it was 20 years ago; this game means the world to the 5,000ish people in the communities and their surrounding areas, it loses relevance for the other 4 million of us in this state when the game has no real reaching implications. Again, I am asserting here that a key component of a rivalry is its impact on the state hockey scene; most of the other people posting on this thread seem to agree on this point. It would be nonsensical to claim that Roseau-Warroad would not be a better rivalry if both were in the same section. Hence, potential for increasing its quality is being killed.

5. No, I haven't been to a Roseau-Warroad game. I'd love to go someday, though other priorities will likely make this next to impossible for a very long time. In spite of the harsh words above, I think this rivalry could easily return to the top; Warroad looks excellent this year, while Roseau's struggling a bit; perhaps they're moving back towards each other and will play thrilling hockey against each other in the near future. It's an incredibly special game as it is, and I thought I made that clear in the first post. Just not quite East-Cloquet at this point in time, in my estimation.

I was simply trying to advance a method by which we could separate the 3 consensus greatest rivaries in the state. I am sorry you have found my efforts to be true idiocy, and am interested in seeing your own methodology. I by no means assert my righteousness, and as I have made evident the variability in the definition of "rivalry" amongst different people.

---
Although history is only one piece of the puzzle, I'd be curious to see some more numbers from the past relating to the three we've cited as great rivalries, and perhaps Centennial-Blaine could be thrown in for fun as well, as it seems to be the most notable emerging rivalry.

I can say East is 10-8 vs. Cloquet in playoff games, and that the Hill-Murray-WBL margin is much more lopsided in the expected direction.

Also, out of sheer curiosity, has anyone been to all 3 (WBL-HM, DE-CEC,Roseau-Warroad)? That would be an interesting perspective on the issue, particularly were this person to not have a vested interest in one of the six that may cloud the judgment a bit.

Wow, you sure wasted a lot of time typing all that when just one little line made my point!

Please go back and read my post again, because point 3, paragraph 2 spells out the counter-argument to your claim. If you need it explained to you, let me know.

And the notion that I am incapable of judging something because I have never seen it in person and live is hopelessly flawed. If that were the case, this forum would not exist.

I apologize for attempting to prompt intelligent debate on this.

[cody53193]

If its public vs private then i would say that Tartan - Hill Murray is a huge game because alot of Hill Murray Players should go to Tartan. Like Ryan Furne. He played with Tartan his freshmen year when they went to state and then transfered to hill murray.

[Duluth 4]

Spoken like a true idiot. Where do i start? First of all it's roseau that has the little old rink. Warroad has a big new arena. Pretty one sided? I'm guessing you're thinking roseau has been dominant. Why don't you go back 20 years and see who's record is better. Third, have you been to a game? You tell me how much tension is gone....

You my friend are a moron for coming on to this thread for the wrong reasons. People come here to talk hockey not bash one another.

[HShockeywatcher]

pot calling the kettle black?

[defense]

Aren't we kinda splitting hairs here?????

Others: Brainerd v Little Falls
Fergus Falls v Detroit Lakes
Moorhead v Roseau (Moorhead really doesn't have a long standing rivalry anymore, so this is the best for them..)

Tension, section implications, conference standings etc... they're there. Maybe not the most storied, but.....still good...Little Falls took Brainerd's spot as Central Lakes Conference power the last few years, and geography plays a big roll...
Fergus Falls and Detroit Lakes used to be the top teams in their section, still are in the same section, but arent' the powers anymore....geography again, and this one is ALL SPORTS.....
Obviously Moorhead or Roseau has ...what...taken all of the section 8aa championships... again this one is not long running and have deep history such as others do....but now it has to be a fun game for everyone.....

[TheSniper09]

TG and Spring Lake Park

[HappyHockeyFan]

Its by far NOT a major rivalry as far as the State goes but if you havent been to a SSP Vs Simley game you should. You can cut the tension in the air with a knife. Simley loses its best players to SSP on a regular basis and the ones left at Simley are not pleased to see the pals they grew up with wearing the brown and white jersey of the Packers. Lots of trash talking , BIG hitting and bad feelings in this rivalry. One year SSP had 5 or 6 players from Simley on their squad and Simley had 2 skaters and a goalie from SSP on their squad...that was interesting. Check it out sometime, no matter the score its a VERY entertaining game to watch.

[gopherhockey99]

I agree with east on the Duluth East-Cloquet rivalry as right near the top rivalry, if not the top rivalry. Others in my opinion: Hill - WBL, Roseau - Warroad, CDH - STA, and an increasing one is Duluth Marshall - STA

[BlackTapeBandit]

Cloquet vs. East is always a great match.

i like to watch US teams vs. Canadian teams, or in state vs. out-of-state games too.

International Falls Vs. Fort Frances is a great match up, usually a close game, i dont know the exactly what the series is at, but i believe that FF is winning it. Don't call me on that!

I dont know if they play or not, but im wondering if EGF vs. GF would be a good match to watch.

[defense]

With the Hill Murray vs. White Bear game just around the corner, it brings back memories of some of the great games these teams have had in the past. I would say it's the best rivalry in the metro, but what you consider the best rivalry in the state?

Actually, I think the BEST rivalry in the state would be the University of Minnesota Gophers V St. Cloud State University Huskies.....
Oh...this is a high school message board....

[hshckfan08]

With the Hill Murray vs. White Bear game just around the corner, it brings back memories of some of the great games these teams have had in the past. I would say it's the best rivalry in the metro, but what you consider the best rivalry in the state?

Actually, I think the BEST rivalry in the state would be the University of Minnesota Gophers V St. Cloud State University Huskies.....
Oh...this is a high school message board....

Gophers-Bulldogs!

[defense]

With the Hill Murray vs. White Bear game just around the corner, it brings back memories of some of the great games these teams have had in the past. I would say it's the best rivalry in the metro, but what you consider the best rivalry in the state?

Actually, I think the BEST rivalry in the state would be the University of Minnesota Gophers V St. Cloud State University Huskies.....
Oh...this is a high school message board....

Gophers-Bulldogs!

I stand corrected......

[Tigers33]

Top 5, not in any certain order.

Edina vs. Eden Prairie
Eveleth vs. Virginia
Grand Rapids vs. Greenway
Blaine vs. Centennial
Warroad vs. Roseau (has to be number 1)

[Duluth 4]

Top 5, not in any certain order.

Edina vs. Eden Prairie
Eveleth vs. Virginia
Grand Rapids vs. Greenway
Blaine vs. Centennial
Warroad vs. Roseau (has to be number 1)

You forgot East vs. Cloquet?

[redfirehockey1]

Top 5, not in any certain order.

Edina vs. Eden Prairie
Eveleth vs. Virginia
Grand Rapids vs. Greenway
Blaine vs. Centennial
Warroad vs. Roseau (has to be number 1)

You forgot East vs. Cloquet?

maybe he doesn't think East vs Cloquet is top 5?

[Lucia4President]

Top 5, not in any certain order.

Edina vs. Eden Prairie
Eveleth vs. Virginia
Grand Rapids vs. Greenway
Blaine vs. Centennial
Warroad vs. Roseau (has to be number 1)

You forgot East vs. Cloquet?

maybe he doesn't think East vs Cloquet is top 5?

He also doesn't have Hill-White Bear.

[minnesotaice]

blah blah blah
you guys can keep your historical rivalries, im gonna take the one that has been developing over the past few years:

Blaine vs. Centennial

[Duluth 4]

You forgot East vs. Cloquet?

maybe he doesn't think East vs Cloquet is top 5?

He also doesn't have Hill-White Bear.

I Don't think he gets out much.

[EHSHack]

A kid from Cloquet hit a kid from East with a baseball bat last year after East beat them 2-1 at the DECC. Thats pretty intense.

[JV State Champs]

BSM vs. St. Louis Park
What else needs to be said.

[Defiant]

East VS. West......

[pacman]

A kid from Cloquet hit a kid from East with a baseball bat last year after East beat them 2-1 at the DECC. Thats pretty intense.

Your Kidding? I Feel sorry for the kid who got hit but that's pretty funny.

[Lucia4President]

A kid from Cloquet hit a kid from East with a baseball bat last year after East beat them 2-1 at the DECC. Thats pretty intense.

Your Kidding? I Feel sorry for the kid who got hit but that's pretty funny.

True story. Didn't someone get the plate on the kid's car and the cops showed up at his house later for a visit?

[UpNorthStars]

Thank you for deigning to call me an idiot. That sure put me in my place.

1. Yes, I blew a detail on the Warroad Ice Gardens. Thank you for catching that. But I do not see how this in any way supports the argument you are trying to make.

2. Of course Warroad has had its periods of dominance in the rivalry; I could have told that without looking at any scores. Rivalries don't become rivalries without some basis of highly-charged competition. But I was assuming that the creator of this thread wanted to know what the best rivalry is today, not in 1988, which predates my birth. If I misinterpreted that, my bad. But if I didn't it's hard to deny this rivalry has been pretty one-sided lately.

I consider continued competitiveness to be an essential element of a high-quality rivalry. Perhaps you feel differently. Perhaps you have a different definition of a rivalry, which I would enjoy hearing.

I've been around a decent number of rivalries in my life. When we're out of hockey season, I live and die Yankees baseball (don't ask how that happened to a Minnesotan...but it did). The Yankees' rivalry with the Red Sox is huge, as everyone knows, perhaps the best in professional sports. But 10 years ago, when all was right in the universe and the Yankees consistently slaughtered the Red Sox, the rivalry wasn't nearly as engaging. While there was still plenty of hatred on the local level, particularly up in Boston, where they were rather sick of losing, it just wasn't as captivating, especially to Yankees fans. The Red Sox were just another team that was a bit more obnoxious than some of the others on the march to another pennant.

Should East-Cloquet move into a period over the next five years in which one team consistently beats up on the other, naturally some other rivalry will surpass it, even in my eyes.

3. Perhaps you wish to argue that Roseau-Warroad's ability to consistently captivate local fans on both sides in spite of the recent imbalance is an indication of its strength, which I would consider to be a good counter-argument. But now I'm making your arguments for you.

To this hypothetical situation, I would respond by noting that should this status quo endure (which I definitely do not expect), people will gradually start losing interest. Some sort of Yankees-Sox-pre-2004 Syndrome will emerge. There's also the statewide exposure aspect. People will, naturally, be far more drawn to rivalries that are competitive. When the aura around the game (atmosphere, fans, history, etc.) starts to exceed the quality of the action on the ice, the game is on life support. All that stuff is excellent and I love it all, but the game takes precedence.

4. I did not say that any tension has left the games. The phrase "the two teams aren't even in the same class, which kills a lot of the tension" is written in the present tense, which does not imply that the tension used to be there and is no longer, as you seem to have construed it. I'm sure the atmosphere in each arena is just as intense as it was 20 years ago; this game means the world to the 5,000ish people in the communities and their surrounding areas, it loses relevance for the other 4 million of us in this state when the game has no real reaching implications. Again, I am asserting here that a key component of a rivalry is its impact on the state hockey scene; most of the other people posting on this thread seem to agree on this point. It would be nonsensical to claim that Roseau-Warroad would not be a better rivalry if both were in the same section. Hence, potential for increasing its quality is being killed.

5. No, I haven't been to a Roseau-Warroad game. I'd love to go someday, though other priorities will likely make this next to impossible for a very long time. In spite of the harsh words above, I think this rivalry could easily return to the top; Warroad looks excellent this year, while Roseau's struggling a bit; perhaps they're moving back towards each other and will play thrilling hockey against each other in the near future. It's an incredibly special game as it is, and I thought I made that clear in the first post. Just not quite East-Cloquet at this point in time, in my estimation.

I was simply trying to advance a method by which we could separate the 3 consensus greatest rivaries in the state. I am sorry you have found my efforts to be true idiocy, and am interested in seeing your own methodology. I by no means assert my righteousness, and as I have made evident the variability in the definition of "rivalry" amongst different people.

---
Although history is only one piece of the puzzle, I'd be curious to see some more numbers from the past relating to the three we've cited as great rivalries, and perhaps Centennial-Blaine could be thrown in for fun as well, as it seems to be the most notable emerging rivalry.

I can say East is 10-8 vs. Cloquet in playoff games, and that the Hill-Murray-WBL margin is much more lopsided in the expected direction.

Also, out of sheer curiosity, has anyone been to all 3 (WBL-HM, DE-CEC,Roseau-Warroad)? That would be an interesting perspective on the issue, particularly were this person to not have a vested interest in one of the six that may cloud the judgment a bit.

Wow, you sure wasted a lot of time typing all that when just one little line made my point!

Please go back and read my post again, because point 3, paragraph 2 spells out the counter-argument to your claim. If you need it explained to you, let me know.

And the notion that I am incapable of judging something because I have never seen it in person and live is hopelessly flawed. If that were the case, this forum would not exist.

I apologize for attempting to prompt intelligent debate on this.

ok, you want to really debate? You tell me what the recent imbalance has been.