Miracle/Cyclones ???????

[d10dad]

Your right add another $100 team costs (looking at fees two years ago), add another $40 for USAH registration and $60 try-out fee. Missed that on the 1st pass. Still cost is about a grand for SQA and PW hockey.

Even at $1300 for I assume a minimum of 130 hours of ice over 5 - 6 months >> association costs are much lower than Showcase AAA.

Showcase AAA was fun for our son, but I do not believe it was the best value for $ spent ...

did like the touch-up off-sides in tournaments and the longer game times.

130 hours of association Ice, come on…
Where you getting that, because I’m moving there…

Even if you skated 20 hours a month (about 5 days a week) from October to March 1st , that’s only 100 hours…

[Who else?]

Cyclones vs. Miracle - IMO...

Your own research is the most important. Ask others about the organizers / coaches of your respective age group and you'll get you answer rather quickly. For example, the '95 Cyclones (of 2009) experience may very much resemble the '95 Christian team (of 2008) and '95 lightning of (2007-06). The same would be true of '96 staff on down.

If people were happy with the experience, they can expect more of the same (W-L can always change). The parent name of the organization will not change what happens on the ice.

As always, quality will lie with the guy carrying the puck-bag.

The significant difference between these two programs will be invite vs. open tournaments, ice time, and # of players rostered.

Google it baby!

[iwearmysunglassesatnight]

[quote="Who else?"]Cyclones vs. Miracle - IMO...

. For example, the '95 Cyclones (of 2009) experience may very much resemble the '95 Christian team (of 2008) and '95 lightning of (2007-06).

So the 95' cyclones are not a tier 1 AAA team?

[acrossthestreet]

In our association and other D2 associations (talked with parents and coaches):

Bantam A: 22 - 30 hours (VFW) per month
PWA: 22 - 25 hours per month
Squirt A: 20 - 22 hours month

non of those hours above include dryland training, which easily adds another 5 - 10 hours per month at the PW and Bantam level.

[yeahyeahyeah]

In my opinion Association development and summer development cannot be comparable in our experience. Although our coach tries to get everything he can from the kids in winter it is nearly impossible to develop skills adequately in one hour sessions. When you say 20-25 hours of development that often means 20-25 trips to the rink, not always I understand that.
We noticed that with the Cyclones 2 hour blocks our son showed greater improvement because the program was solid for one but a close second was the 2 hour blocks and dedication to solid skill teaching.
Ice time alone does not make a player better we experienced that in the open program the year before, 90 minute practices when 20 minutes of that are used to change jerseys for 3 on 3, explain drills on ice, excessive water breaks. In one of my sons previous practices I noticed kids laying on the ice doing nothing while 5 kids did a drill.
None of this would ever happen with Cyclones.

[Marty]

Agree with yeahyeahyeah in that the coaching staff will ultimately determine the real return for $$ paid in both fun and development.

Note - I never said do not do AAA in fact I said our family has participated. Many AAA teams are run for profit, no idea if anyone actually makes a living off this ... no problem with this either - just buyer beware .... Unlike in the winter with Association hockey ... the parent & player have choices.
What do you want for your child of this?

development (ice time and instruction): Cyclones?? lots of ice tine & fewer games .. Over 100 hours of ice during the spring and summer should be considered cautiously. FYI - top tier kids quit hockey at a decent rate too!!! not just those cut... The kid must want this and not just the parent.

These development AAA teams maybe better $$ spent than camps if instruction is top level.


or

playing on a top AAA team to win tournaments and maybe grab some scout's eye ?


If you are looking for a top competitive team that will win ... then here is what I recommend (based on past experience with tournament winning teams and teams with no chance):


AAA programs that run multiple try-outs during the regular hockey season ??

should make you ask why ...

what are they looking for? why do they have holes in the roster?


the teams that are going to win the AAA tournaments are more than likely filling roster spots by scouting (word of mouth), talking to other coaches, watching the competition play their winter teams ....

Teams that are composed of more than 4 players from one association should make you ask why? Is this really a AAA team or a team that just does not want to play regular Showcase leagues.


Either way, one final recommendation: Who are the coaches, what are their credentials, why are they coaching this team, any measurable player goals beyond team goals

[yeahyeahyeah]

This sounds like it is leading down the path of parent vs non-parent, maybe not. I will never put down a coach but I think it is important to note that in this case our Open team was coached by a person that coaches full time as a profession. Cyclone had a parent coach.
I kind of feel that the parent has more at stake to make the team successful so they will take the coaching opportunity to heart rather than collect a check. Our paid coach missed many opening face offs and practices, the parent coach was there on time regularly.
Please do not think I am generalizing, not all parents coaches are great and not all non-parent coaches are bad, or vice versa. I realize that. I think the best course of action is to follow their coaching path, make some calls to parents of players the idividual has coached.

[MoreCowBell]

Buyer beware; Cyclones are run by two dads of kids that were cut from the Machine or the Duece, so the main hidden focus is to provide a situation for thier two benders to play. Neither dad was a top notch player in their own right but all they are doing is copying what Bernie does, which is fine but just so you know it they are in it for thier own kids.
And by the way Cyclones is for profit but the Miracle is non profit.

[d10dad]

Buyer beware; Cyclones are run by two dads of kids that were cut from the Machine or the Duece, so the main hidden focus is to provide a situation for thier two benders to play. Neither dad was a top notch player in their own right but all they are doing is copying what Bernie does, which is fine but just so you know it they are in it for thier own kids.
And by the way Cyclones is for profit but the Miracle is non profit.

Cyclones have more hours and are cheaper than MM...
Also, 96 & 97 Cyclones beat the Deuce, so they must've copied all the good things from MM
What did Bernie do as a player? Was he Top Notch?
No, he studied the game from the Russians and Skinner...

Cyclones = Development = Proven Invite Teams
Miracle = Rink Rat = Less $$ = Open teams
No Comparison

Cyclones will have 12 teams this year. I hardly think this growth is from just the dads interest in their own children.

[buttend]

Buyer beware; Cyclones are run by two dads of kids that were cut from the Machine or the Duece, so the main hidden focus is to provide a situation for thier two benders to play. Neither dad was a top notch player in their own right but all they are doing is copying what Bernie does, which is fine but just so you know it they are in it for thier own kids.
And by the way Cyclones is for profit but the Miracle is non profit.

Cyclones have more hours and are cheaper than MM...
Also, 96 & 97 Cyclones beat the Deuce, so they must've copied all the good things from MM
What did Bernie do as a player? Was he Top Notch?
No, he studied the game from the Russians and Skinner...

Cyclones = Development = Proven Invite Teams
Miracle = Rink Rat = Less $$ = Open teams
No Comparison

Cyclones will have 12 teams this year. I hardly think this growth is from just the dads interest in their own children.

MCB,

When we do inside edge w/ a hop we do it better, we jump higher. When we do our expansions of reach to the backhand we really expand that reach. Cyclone training is better. Our 110 hours of ice beats your 100-110 hours of ice. Our 2-3 Tournaments per season beats your 5-6 tournaments because Cyclone training is better.

In the summer of 2008, our proven invite team the 96 Cyclones beat your Duece team at the Prestigious USA International Cup in Blaine, We beat you 5-4 in pool play. We also beat the Wi Blizzard 15-0 and the Stealth 14-0. The Duece beat the Cyclones in the Championship Game but we all know, Cyclone training is better! In the same tournament our proven 97 Cyclones lost to the Deuce 7-2. But we revenged that loss with a decisive 4-3 victory in a scrimmage because Cyclone training is better!

In 2009, we will grow from 2 teams to 12 teams because Cyclone training in better. Our profit margins, will be bigger because Cyclone training is better (and we add a boat load of practice players to each team to boost revenues and keep the overall cost below yours for the tourament player and its good marketing to be lower than MM).

We all know Bernie copied the Rusians and Skinner for his program, but we copied Bernie! Cyclone training is better. MCB you cant win, give up, Cyclone training is better!

I heard Bernie has some new drills to improve quickness and balance. When you have time can you send those our way?

[muckandgrind]

Buyer beware; Cyclones are run by two dads of kids that were cut from the Machine or the Duece, so the main hidden focus is to provide a situation for thier two benders to play. Neither dad was a top notch player in their own right but all they are doing is copying what Bernie does, which is fine but just so you know it they are in it for thier own kids.
And by the way Cyclones is for profit but the Miracle is non profit.

Cyclones have more hours and are cheaper than MM...
Also, 96 & 97 Cyclones beat the Deuce, so they must've copied all the good things from MM
What did Bernie do as a player? Was he Top Notch?
No, he studied the game from the Russians and Skinner...

Cyclones = Development = Proven Invite Teams
Miracle = Rink Rat = Less $$ = Open teams
No Comparison

Cyclones will have 12 teams this year. I hardly think this growth is from just the dads interest in their own children.

MCB,

When we do inside edge w/ a hop we do it better, we jump higher. When we do our expansions of reach to the backhand we really expand that reach. Cyclone training is better. Our 110 hours of ice beats your 100-110 hours of ice. Our 2-3 Tournaments per season beats your 5-6 tournaments because Cyclone training is better.

In the summer of 2008, our proven invite team the 96 Cyclones beat your Duece team at the Prestigious USA International Cup in Blaine, We beat you 5-4 in pool play. We also beat the Wi Blizzard 15-0 and the Stealth 14-0. The Duece beat the Cyclones in the Championship Game but we all know, Cyclone training is better! In the same tournament our proven 97 Cyclones lost to the Deuce 7-2. But we revenged that loss with a decisive 4-3 victory in a scrimmage because Cyclone training is better!

In 2009, we will grow from 2 teams to 12 teams because Cyclone training in better. Our profit margins, will be bigger because Cyclone training is better (and we add a boat load of practice players to each team to boost revenues and keep the overall cost below yours for the tourament player and its good marketing to be lower than MM).

We all know Bernie copied the Rusians and Skinner for his program, but we copied Bernie! Cyclone training is better. MCB you cant win, give up, Cyclone training is better!

I heard Bernie has some new drills to improve quickness and balance. When you have time can you send those our way?

I believe that d10dad was comparing the Cyclones more with the Miracle than with MM.

As far as the Cyclones being started by the dad of the player cut from Bernie, that's true, but so what? For a "newer" organization the Cyclones are pretty competitive at the invite levels. Give them a few years and they will be up there with MM, the Icemen and the Blades, mark my words. Why? Because they follow (or copy, whichever you prefer) the MM training philosophy and they are geographically-suited to attract the top northern suburb players who's parents don't want to drive their kids all the way to Edina for ice.

Personally, I don't care if they are a "for profit" organization. If they provide a good service and make money, good for them. We DO live in America, right? We still have the right to earn a living, right?

[yeahyeahyeah]

I used to think the for profit vs non profit argument was derived out of ill feelings usa hockey, mn hockey and local boards had against programs trying to do go a different route. Now I am beginning to think that it is just a front for organizations to bad mouth others.
Let's break down the NON profit Summer team.
Miracle for instance had 25 + kids per roster last year, yes they had practice players too. They charged $1,000 per kid when all was said and done for 60 hours of practice and 3 touneys. I talked to a guy that said they had 80-90 hours of ice but then I looked at their actual schedule and totaled it up and could not find anything remotely near that. I asked the same dad about it again and he said, "well they had these "rink rat" sessions that happened once and awhile they woudl call us up the day of or maybe a day ahead adn say we have an hour of ice available, they invited 99's and 98's on the ice to do this and there were no coaches.
Sometimes there were 40+ kids, some times there were no goalies, sometimes there were 15 kids."I am not certain I would include that ice time in the program ice alotment.
So 60 hours of development and 3 tourneys, $1000 - 25 + kids.
Even if the ice costs $150/hour (I am sure it is cheaper considering they are part of Super Rink) That is $9000 worth of ice, 3 tourneys cost roughly $4500, one jersey $50 (Total of $850 they could not keep the jersey so cant add this in the bill), one other jersey $15 (keeper total $405). socks $15 (keepers $420), Misc coache costs $4000.
Rough estimate total cost of a Miracle "non-Profit" team, $18,325. They collected roughly $25,000!. Where did $6,600 go? My math may be off but it is awefully hard to misplace $6,600.
I am not trying to start anything here but the reality is that no program is a break even.
We just have to realize that do your homework based on what is important to you and your child and join that program.
So the for profit vs non-profit stuff is not as valid an argument as some would like to believe. I shop for development first value second.
Form what I can tell Miracle won one consolation trophy last year in open events. Cyclones won championships at Invite level.
Please do not think I am bashing Miracle but the direction this thread went is ridiculous. Both nice programs for completely different types of players.

I am not going to get into the MM vs Cyclone argument because that is just stupid, if anyone should be on the same side it is those two organizations.

[3GoonsWest]

Nicely put M&G. I have to believe that the competition will only improve both programs.

[JoltDelivered]

Buyer beware; Cyclones are run by two dads of kids that were cut from the Machine or the Duece, so the main hidden focus is to provide a situation for thier two benders to play.

What's a bender? Is that a negative or positive reference to a child?

[d10dad]

Buyer beware; Cyclones are run by two dads of kids that were cut from the Machine or the Duece, so the main hidden focus is to provide a situation for thier two benders to play.

What's a bender? Is that a negative or positive reference to a child?

I think the Edina Cowbell is showing her class again...

Calling CHILDREN binge drinkers, druggies, or Homosexuals...
NICE....
• An expression for a Binge drinking spree, referring to the act of bending over to vomit, or now used also for going on a legal or illegal binge drug spree, such as large use of cocaine or heroin in short amount of time.
• A derogatory British slang for a male homosexual, derived from the practice of bending over to permit buggery.

[LesHabs]

Buyer beware; Cyclones are run by two dads of kids that were cut from the Machine or the Duece, so the main hidden focus is to provide a situation for thier two benders to play.

What's a bender? Is that a negative or positive reference to a child?

I think the Edina Cowbell is showing her class again...

Calling CHILDREN binge drinkers, druggies, or Homosexuals...
NICE....
• An expression for a Binge drinking spree, referring to the act of bending over to vomit, or now used also for going on a legal or illegal binge drug spree, such as large use of cocaine or heroin in short amount of time.
• A derogatory British slang for a male homosexual, derived from the practice of bending over to permit buggery.

What's buggery?

[Toomuchtoosoon]

What's buggery?

Don't ask, don't tell

[Judgeandjury]

How's the 98 team looking? How do they compare to the Machine and Blades?

[spin-o-rama]

In hockey, a "bender" is someone who can't skate very well. They have the weak ankles effect.
MCB's comment was equivalent to calling a person a bench warmer.
Unfortunately, "bender" has some other definitions outside the hockey world.

[MoveYourFeet]

Bernie started MM for his kid too, the same as Cyclone. Yes we all know that the Cyclone guys were cut from the MM program and hence promted them to start Cyclone. It is all about location, location, location; if the Cyclone guys did not get cut we would not have the program today. I am sure a lot of those parents that made Cyclone if they had the chance would play for MM. It is a choice, absolutely, lets just see if the Cyclone program and others popping up have the staying power as MM and others.

Dont knock people for making cash, but when your kid is the third liner on any of those teams that have parents coaching or running the program and your kid gets shorted, know that you made the choice.

I look forward to your replies. Good luck this off-season to all, may your kids be ready to play in the fall.

____

Put your street clothes on, I got no time for candy asses!

[lamplighter]

These guys (their kids) were not cut from the MM program. Bond was the coach of the 96 Deuce (not head coach in title, but definitely the developmental guru) and elected to leave in order to launch is own program and personal approach. As for Z, it's my understanding he and Bernie Mc.B. had a difference of opinions while Z Jr. was a member of the 96 Machine. Stuff happens. Both MM and Cyclone are top notch. Aside from these two, there are lots of quality programs/teams for kids to partake in around the metro area. A great thing.

[iwearmysunglassesatnight]

[quote="yeahyeahyeah"]I used to think the for profit vs non profit argument was derived out of ill feelings usa hockey, mn hockey and local boards had against programs trying to do go a different route. Now I am beginning to think that it is just a front for organizations to bad mouth others.
Let's break down the NON profit Summer team.
Miracle for instance had 25 + kids per roster last year, yes they had practice players too. They charged $1,000 per kid when all was said and done for 60 hours of practice and 3 touneys. I talked to a guy that said they had 80-90 hours of ice but then I looked at their actual schedule and totaled it up and could not find anything remotely near that. I asked the same dad about it again and he said, "[i]well they had these "rink rat" sessions that happened once and awhile they woudl call us up the day of or maybe a day ahead adn say we have an hour of ice available, they invited 99's and 98's on the ice to do this and there were no coaches.
Sometimes there were 40+ kids, some times there were no goalies, sometimes there were 15 kids."[/i]I am not certain I would include that ice time in the program ice alotment.
So 60 hours of development and 3 tourneys, $1000 - 25 + kids.
Even if the ice costs $150/hour (I am sure it is cheaper considering they are part of Super Rink) That is $9000 worth of ice, 3 tourneys cost roughly $4500, one jersey $50 (Total of $850 they could not keep the jersey so cant add this in the bill), one other jersey $15 (keeper total $405). socks $15 (keepers $420), Misc coache costs $4000.
Rough estimate total cost of a Miracle "non-Profit" team, $18,325. They collected roughly $25,000!. Where did $6,600 go? My math may be off but it is awefully hard to misplace $6,600.
I am not trying to start anything here but the reality is that no program is a break even.
We just have to realize that do your homework based on what is important to you and your child and join that program.
So the for profit vs non-profit stuff is not as valid an argument as some would like to believe. I shop for development first value second.
Form what I can tell Miracle won one consolation trophy last year in open events. Cyclones won championships at Invite level.
Please do not think I am bashing Miracle but the direction this thread went is ridiculous. Both nice programs for completely different types of players.

I am not going to get into the MM vs Cyclone argument because that is just stupid, if anyone should be on the same side it is those two organizations.[/quote]


wow! my co-worker got a deal, 100 hrs of ice, 1/2 in 1.5 hr practices in the spring, the other 1/2 in 1.5 hrs practices in the fall, 4 tournaments... 2 and 2..
one fundraiser buyout $150, non paid coaches, $990 in 2009...
payable $500/$500. Someone on this team is losing money, or breaking even. Oh and they have on this team for 6plus years.

[HockeyGuy37]

There appears to be a lot of hearsay on the Miracle and Cyclone programs...

Do yourself a favor and check out their websites:

www.mnmiraclehockey.org

www.cyclonehockeyacademy.com

Contact their respective program directors and get your questions answered from the source...I am sure both of them will be happy to explain their programs.

[d10dad]

There appears to be a lot of hearsay on the Miracle and Cyclone programs...

Do yourself a favor and check out their websites:

www.mnmiraclehockey.org

www.cyclonehockeyacademy.com

Contact their respective program directors and get your questions answered from the source...I am sure both of them will be happy to explain their programs.

Anyone know whatever happened with Miracle joining the new showcase group (CCMAAAHOCKEY) Like the Easton teams?

http://www.ccmaaahockey.com/

also here:
http://www.wideworldofhockey.com/League ... -teams.htm
click the drop down under Minnesota.

Miracle was listed on the CCM site for about a month... as an OPEN team.
Now this miracle site has them as an Elite Premiere Team

[muckandgrind]

There appears to be a lot of hearsay on the Miracle and Cyclone programs...

Do yourself a favor and check out their websites:

www.mnmiraclehockey.org

www.cyclonehockeyacademy.com

Contact their respective program directors and get your questions answered from the source...I am sure both of them will be happy to explain their programs.

Anyone know whatever happen with Miracle joining the new showcase group like the Easton teams?

http://www.ccmaaahockey.com/
also here:
http://www.wideworldofhockey.com/League ... -teams.htm
click the drop down under Minnesota.

Miracle was listed on the site for about a month... as an OPEN team.
Now this miracle site has them as an Elite Premeier Team

I wouldn't consider the Miracle team an "Elite Premeir" team by any stretch. Just a marketing slogan...they are an "open" program.

IMO, "Elite Premier" summer AAA programs would be the Blades, Machine, Icemen, and Lake Superior Stars. Some may even argue that list, but most would agree, I think.

After those teams there is a group that would include (in no particular order) the Edge, Cyclones, Mission (ITR), Northern Edge Nationals, RBK, Easton, Duece, Snipers, etc. These teams are still considered "invite" but not the "premier" ones listed above.

I may have missed a couple of programs but just about everyone who is not in that list would be considered "open" AAA programs...then you have different levels of those as well....

This is just my opinion, though.