Girls Participating in Boy AAA Tourneys

[spin-o-rama]

I guess in the end that is what it is all about - ME, ME, ME - do what's best for me and screw everyone else.

The selfish shoe fits you quite well. You don't have any room for anyone to approach development outside of your tiny tunnel vision.

The girls game has evolved quite a bit. The percentage of girls playing with the boys decreases every year. There will always be those who seek that option - it happens in other sports as well, have you heard of Michelle Wie? You can help sweeten the natural evolution progress or you can stunt it with your acidic and derogatory remarks.

[spin-o-rama]

I find it very amusing that you believe that the girls' level needs to be better in order for the top of the girls crop to play in the girls' league, while you suggest that the best of the girls' should go play with the boys. By leaving the girls' league they are essentially making it worse, you're posts on this thread seem to suggest that you are a very selfish parent of a top level girls hockey player.

Muck, you never told us that one of your "boys" really had golden curls under that helmet.

[This is silly!]

I guess in the end that is what it is all about - ME, ME, ME - do what's best for me and screw everyone else.

The selfish shoe fits you quite well. You don't have any room for anyone to approach development outside of your tiny tunnel vision.

The girls game has evolved quite a bit. The percentage of girls playing with the boys decreases every year. There will always be those who seek that option - it happens in other sports as well, have you heard of Michelle Wie? You can help sweeten the natural evolution progress or you can stunt it with your acidic and derogatory remarks.

So Spin - by your Michelle Wie example - please tell me EXACTLY how Michelle Wie has advanced women's golf? Fact is that she failed MISERABLY when she played in men's events and worse yet to this date has one, YES ONE LPGA title to her credit (and even this win was in a limited field) in 10+ years in LPGA events. So by this example "playing with the boys" really didn't do much if ANYTHING at all. Point being - if she had been playing with THE GIRLS maybe she would have learned a little more and actually won a little more. Fact is she really couldn't have done much worse. Same goes for girls playing hockey with the boys because they seem to think (or their dads seem to think) that they need to be "pushed" or "challenged" by athletes of similar skill levels. Sure there are exceptions but overall it just doesn't hold up. Fact is that girls can get just as good playing on girls teams (and probably dominat) as they would anywhere else. Not to mention the fact that they actually would be advancing GIRLS hockey more quickly by keeping their talents on a girls team.

[InigoMontoya]

I think the disconnect is the assumption of some that girls have the same opportunities that boys do. They certainly have more than Krissy did, but it isn't even close to what the boys have. It's nice to see a program like NWC step up and improve the girls program (and they still have had girls play with the boys), but they are by far the exception.

Let's say a progressive school looked at the research and, realizing that boys and girls learn differently, decided to create a girls' science program and a boys' science program. Both boys and girls get to learn about science, but the boys are working on biochemistry while the girls are learning the difference between animal, vegetable, and mineral. I don't buy the argument that you keep a smart, scientific girl in the girls' class because she'll raise the bar for the other students; she should be afforded an opportunity to learn to the highest of her abilities and efforts. I do agree that school administrators and teachers need to figure out how to close the gap; however, the failings or disinterest of those adults should not be heaped onto the shoulders of a little girl.

[StayAtHomeD]

It's hard to read this without thinking that you're whining about getting your butts kicked by a bunch of girls. Please tell me there's another reason for this thread.

At least the girls finally got an audience to watch, even if the tourney had to trick the audience into watching girls play hockey.

[redarmydad]

Would someone post where these hockey players (girls in this case) played last winter? I am not interested in their Assn, just looking for the level (Example: PWA, PWB, U12A, SQA, etc.)

We had girls from 12UA, Peewee A, Squirt A, 14UA.

Did you know that Andover's A Peewee goalie is a girl! (gasp). An A PEEWEE team that made it to state with a girl for a goalie!!! WHAT??? Consolation Champs I do believe!

I appologize for my sarcasm but some of you act like a revolution is under way, to usurp the traditional roles of hockey. When in fact, this was simply a tournament for our girls to play in and test themselves against a "BETTER TEAM AND CALIBER OF PLAYER". Was it so wrong for our girls to learn that they can do anything they want to, if they try hard enough. Learn that they can compete, even against men. Remember this, They (our daughters ) were the ones to approach us and ask is they could compete against boys. They (OUR DAUGHTERS) wanted this. THIS IS AN ISOLATED INCIDENT. We are not leading a charge to allow girls teams to compete in boys tournaments in the regular season.

Someone asked what is in it for the boys. How about learning that they have to keep going, no matter who they are playing.

In some areas, it is a lack of options that force girls to play with boys but as whole, the fact is that girls hockey is evolving and growing. Certain associations embrace their girls programs and do what they can to increase numbers and develop their own program. The number of girls playing boys hockey is dropping every year. AGAIN, IT IS AN ISOLATED INCIDENT!

Did I mention that the girls beat 3 of the 4 teams they played. So cast aside their talent and drive, cast aside the fact that they competed and simply throw them out because they are girls. I understand that some people still believe that women have no place competing against men, they will simply fade away with time like all things archaic and outdated. And to you I say "The day will come when men will recognize woman as his peer, not only at the fireside, but in councils of the nation. Then, and not until then, will there be the perfect comradeship, the ideal union between the sexes that shall result in the highest development of the race."
-- Susan B. Anthony

Parents let um play!

[murray]

a krissy wendell reference and susan b anthony. seriously, priceless

can somebody call gloria allred. somebody, anybody.

[InigoMontoya]

murray,

So far you've got:
Girls hockey steals ice time from boys hockey.
Can my boy play in a girls tourney?
A girl takes the spot of a boy.

Are you going to stand pat with that, or would you like another card?

[spin-o-rama]

So Spin - by your Michelle Wie example - please tell me EXACTLY how Michelle Wie has advanced women's golf? Fact is that she failed MISERABLY when she played in men's events and worse yet to this date has one, YES ONE LPGA title to her credit (and even this win was in a limited field) in 10+ years in LPGA events. So by this example "playing with the boys" really didn't do much if ANYTHING at all. Point being - if she had been playing with THE GIRLS maybe she would have learned a little more and actually won a little more. Fact is she really couldn't have done much worse. Same goes for girls playing hockey with the boys because they seem to think (or their dads seem to think) that they need to be "pushed" or "challenged" by athletes of similar skill levels. Sure there are exceptions but overall it just doesn't hold up. Fact is that girls can get just as good playing on girls teams (and probably dominat) as they would anywhere else. Not to mention the fact that they actually would be advancing GIRLS hockey more quickly by keeping their talents on a girls team.

First you claimed the girls shouldn't be allowed into the tournament because it was unfair to the boys. The tourney results refuted that pretty easily. Now you have shifted gears to claiming that girls shouldn't be allowed to play with boys because it hinders girls hockey overall. Force and compulsion is a terrible way to run things. Is this Russia? It can be debated if Wie would do better personally and women's golf would be better off if she played lpga only. However, she qualified for the pga events and it is her choice. How would you like it if legislation were proposed that girls be banned from hockey and only be allowed to figure skate because that produces more "Ladies?"
The D6/MM issue is similar. It is not about which organization offers better development and promotes hockey better, but how much control D6 has over outside activities people participate in.

[MN_Hcky_Coach]

Krissy played at least 1 year of A bantams and did play 1 year of JV high school hockey at park center...just thought you guys should know....and if memory serves me, she was one of the top 5 players on her second year A bantam team

[This is silly!]

So Spin - by your Michelle Wie example - please tell me EXACTLY how Michelle Wie has advanced women's golf? Fact is that she failed MISERABLY when she played in men's events and worse yet to this date has one, YES ONE LPGA title to her credit (and even this win was in a limited field) in 10+ years in LPGA events. So by this example "playing with the boys" really didn't do much if ANYTHING at all. Point being - if she had been playing with THE GIRLS maybe she would have learned a little more and actually won a little more. Fact is she really couldn't have done much worse. Same goes for girls playing hockey with the boys because they seem to think (or their dads seem to think) that they need to be "pushed" or "challenged" by athletes of similar skill levels. Sure there are exceptions but overall it just doesn't hold up. Fact is that girls can get just as good playing on girls teams (and probably dominat) as they would anywhere else. Not to mention the fact that they actually would be advancing GIRLS hockey more quickly by keeping their talents on a girls team.

First you claimed the girls shouldn't be allowed into the tournament because it was unfair to the boys. The tourney results refuted that pretty easily. Now you have shifted gears to claiming that girls shouldn't be allowed to play with boys because it hinders girls hockey overall. Force and compulsion is a terrible way to run things. Is this Russia? It can be debated if Wie would do better personally and women's golf would be better off if she played lpga only. However, she qualified for the pga events and it is her choice. How would you like it if legislation were proposed that girls be banned from hockey and only be allowed to figure skate because that produces more "Ladies?"
The D6/MM issue is similar. It is not about which organization offers better development and promotes hockey better, but how much control D6 has over outside activities people participate in.

Apparently Spin you can't read through a string of posts! I never shifted - just responded to lame brains like you that piss and moan that the level of girls hockey just isn't good enough for some girls and that is why they should be allowed to play with the boys when the simple solution to the problem is to have the best girls play WITH the girls and help raise the bar. Even though I may be from Russia I can still have an opinion!

I do agree with you on one point - let's only allow the girls to figure skate - that's how it's always been here in the good ol CCCP!

[VicKevlar]

So Spin - by your Michelle Wie example - please tell me EXACTLY how Michelle Wie has advanced women's golf? Fact is that she failed MISERABLY when she played in men's events and worse yet to this date has one, YES ONE LPGA title to her credit (and even this win was in a limited field) in 10+ years in LPGA events. So by this example "playing with the boys" really didn't do much if ANYTHING at all. Point being - if she had been playing with THE GIRLS maybe she would have learned a little more and actually won a little more. Fact is she really couldn't have done much worse. Same goes for girls playing hockey with the boys because they seem to think (or their dads seem to think) that they need to be "pushed" or "challenged" by athletes of similar skill levels. Sure there are exceptions but overall it just doesn't hold up. Fact is that girls can get just as good playing on girls teams (and probably dominat) as they would anywhere else. Not to mention the fact that they actually would be advancing GIRLS hockey more quickly by keeping their talents on a girls team.

First you claimed the girls shouldn't be allowed into the tournament because it was unfair to the boys. The tourney results refuted that pretty easily. Now you have shifted gears to claiming that girls shouldn't be allowed to play with boys because it hinders girls hockey overall. Force and compulsion is a terrible way to run things. Is this Russia? It can be debated if Wie would do better personally and women's golf would be better off if she played lpga only. However, she qualified for the pga events and it is her choice. How would you like it if legislation were proposed that girls be banned from hockey and only be allowed to figure skate because that produces more "Ladies?"
The D6/MM issue is similar. It is not about which organization offers better development and promotes hockey better, but how much control D6 has over outside activities people participate in.

Apparently Spin you can't read through a string of posts! I never shifted - just responded to lame brains like you that piss and moan that the level of girls hockey just isn't good enough for some girls and that is why they should be allowed to play with the boys when the simple solution to the problem is to have the best girls play WITH the girls and help raise the bar. Even though I may be from Russia I can still have an opinion!

I do agree with you on one point - let's only allow the girls to figure skate - that's how it's always been here in the good ol CCCP!

[spin-o-rama]

Apparently Spin you can't read through a string of posts! I never shifted - just responded to lame brains like you that piss and moan that the level of girls hockey just isn't good enough for some girls and that is why they should be allowed to play with the boys when the simple solution to the problem is to have the best girls play WITH the girls and help raise the bar. Even though I may be from Russia I can still have an opinion!

I do agree with you on one point - let's only allow the girls to figure skate - that's how it's always been here in the good ol CCCP!

In case you have forgotten your stance about the unfairness to the boys:

In this particular case all the boys teams should have at the very least been notified to give them the option playing or not.

Second place team or not, is it such a bad thing to notify the other teams that there is an all girls team playing?

I think that it's hard for ANY boy to play his best, hit his hardest or however you may want to phrase it when they (he) is playing vs a girl or a team of girls.

Even someone who can't even remember what they write should be able to recognize that an A level youth team plays at a higher level than an A level girls team. Who are you to deny a girl the opportunity to prove they can play to that level?

[nahc]

Don't have any problem at all with female skaters competing at the AAA level as a team or as individuals. There are some VERY talented ladies out there, of all ages, who can play with a LOT of the boys/men. I DO have a challenge with girls/ladies playing on association teams. This takes away a slot for a male skater. Guys CANNOT try out or play on female association teams. To be fair then, females should NOT be allowed to tryout for boys teams........if this is allowed, boys should be able to tryout for any and all girls teams............fair is fair..........

[HockeyDad41]

That might be the first picture I have ever seen posted in a thread like this. I didn't even know you could do that.

[VicKevlar]

That might be the first picture I have ever seen posted in a thread like this. I didn't even know you could do that.

Pretty much all the PHP stuff is enabled here........html is turned off however.

Only time pics really show is in the High School forum with the occasional pics from games......or when a porno spammer hits this place.

[AimHigh]

HEY! I have a problem with this girl being in the military. She is taking the spot of a real soldier. IT IS NOT FAIR!!

That might be the first picture I have ever seen posted in a thread like this. I didn't even know you could do that.

Pretty much all the PHP stuff is enabled here........html is turned off however.

Only time pics really show is in the High School forum with the occasional pics from games......or when a porno spammer hits this place.

[This is silly!]

Apparently Spin you can't read through a string of posts! I never shifted - just responded to lame brains like you that piss and moan that the level of girls hockey just isn't good enough for some girls and that is why they should be allowed to play with the boys when the simple solution to the problem is to have the best girls play WITH the girls and help raise the bar. Even though I may be from Russia I can still have an opinion!

I do agree with you on one point - let's only allow the girls to figure skate - that's how it's always been here in the good ol CCCP!

In case you have forgotten your stance about the unfairness to the boys:

In this particular case all the boys teams should have at the very least been notified to give them the option playing or not.

Second place team or not, is it such a bad thing to notify the other teams that there is an all girls team playing?

I think that it's hard for ANY boy to play his best, hit his hardest or however you may want to phrase it when they (he) is playing vs a girl or a team of girls.

Even someone who can't even remember what they write should be able to recognize that an A level youth team plays at a higher level than an A level girls team. Who are you to deny a girl the opportunity to prove they can play to that level?

Once again Spin - never shifted or denied what you said or what I previously wrote. Like I said - just responded to LAME BRAINS like yourself on different points and that can't accept someone may have a differing opinion. How can I make this more clear - I DON'T BELIEVE GIRLS SHOULD PLAY ON BOYS TEAMS! Did you understand that?

So once again - can you answer MY question? Doesn't it make sense that if the BEST girls play in GIRL'S leagues that it would stand to reason that the level of play would come up quicker and thus reduce or eliminate the need for girls to play on boys teams or leagues? For some reason you skirt the question because I think you may just be afraid I'm right.

Is it really so bad to have full disclosure so everyone can make their own decisions? Is that UNFAIR?!?!?!?

[spin-o-rama]

Once again Spin - never shifted or denied what you said or what I previously wrote. Like I said - just responded to LAME BRAINS like yourself on different points and that can't accept someone may have a differing opinion. How can I make this more clear - I DON'T BELIEVE GIRLS SHOULD PLAY ON BOYS TEAMS! Did you understand that? Lucky for you that no one is out to make your daughter play with the boys. You have the right to make that choice for your family and that's it.

So once again - can you answer MY question? Doesn't it make sense that if the BEST girls play in GIRL'S leagues that it would stand to reason that the level of play would come up quicker and thus reduce or eliminate the need for girls to play on boys teams or leagues? Personally, I feel the girls game is coming along fine. There are lots of great girl players who play with the girls and it's cool to see girls who can hang with the boys. Your absolute ideas for hockey development would be a scary regime. For some reason you skirt the question because I think you may just be afraid I'm right. You need to reread the thread. Others and I have given answers on this, but then you can't even correctly recall what you wrote. You keep twisting yourself up.

Is it really so bad to have full disclosure so everyone can make their own decisions? Is that UNFAIR?!?!?!? You want people to make their own decisions, yet want there to be no choice of where to play? Maybe you should change your moniker to Hobson.

[This is silly!]

Once again Spin - never shifted or denied what you said or what I previously wrote. Like I said - just responded to LAME BRAINS like yourself on different points and that can't accept someone may have a differing opinion. How can I make this more clear - I DON'T BELIEVE GIRLS SHOULD PLAY ON BOYS TEAMS! Did you understand that? Lucky for you that no one is out to make your daughter play with the boys. You have the right to make that choice for your family and that's it. But, BUT, my SON doesn't have that same choice! He is forced to play with or vs girls if the girls so chose! So that's my whole point exactly and you illustrate it perfectly! In your opinion it is okay for GIRLS to have the choice but NOT the boys because they have to play by whatever the GIRL chooses!

So once again - can you answer MY question? Doesn't it make sense that if the BEST girls play in GIRL'S leagues that it would stand to reason that the level of play would come up quicker and thus reduce or eliminate the need for girls to play on boys teams or leagues? Personally, I feel the girls game is coming along fine. Still didn't answer my question - I didn't ask if the girls game was coming along fine. There are lots of great girl players who play with the girls and it's cool to see girls who can hang with the boys. Your absolute ideas for hockey development would be a scary regime. I beg to differ - YOUR regime is the scary one - it gives one person (a girl for instance) the right to make a decision that is forced upon another (boys in this case). For some reason you skirt the question because I think you may just be afraid I'm right. You need to reread the thread. Others and I have given answers on this, but then you can't even correctly recall what you wrote. You keep twisting yourself up. Ahhhh no, you haven't.

Is it really so bad to have full disclosure so everyone can make their own decisions? Is that UNFAIR?!?!?!? You want people to make their own decisions, yet want there to be no choice of where to play? Maybe you should change your moniker to Hobson. Once again you didn't answer the question (but I'm use to it now). This is what I was getting at - go ahead and let people make their own decisions (the girls in this case) - just let the decision be know to all participants is all I was referencing here in regards to the teams in this particular tournament. This had nothing to do with not letting people (girls) have a choice of where to play. The boys teams should also be given a CHOICE as to if they want to play vs a girls team. That's FAIR.

[murray]

murray,

So far you've got:
Girls hockey steals ice time from boys hockey.
Can my boy play in a girls tourney?
A girl takes the spot of a boy.

Are you going to stand pat with that, or would you like another card?

i have no idea what that means,

i need to explain more? I read the posts on this thread related to development of hockey players and the bit#$$ng that goes on and everyone like to question the evaluators (advanced programs), high school hockey (not enough games..development)=, dilution of AAA hockey in the state. on and on and on and on....
but we are supposed to sit here and say to my daughter it is fine for your development to play on whatever team you would like.
even if that takes a spot from a boy who does not have the same choice she does. when there are girls programs available.

that boy at the age of 8-9-10--11-12 might only be the 10th best on the team. he could potentially progress through the association to be one of the best high school players or maybe just the third line guy that forechecks, adds pressure loosens the puck for the turnover that scores the winner to hit the state, or win the state. you'll never know. he didn't stay with it long enough. ended on the C team with the coach so could give a s#$% less. didn't get enough ice to develop like the A and B squads did. but let us have the girl skate on the boys team at the age of 10 cause she has better hand-eye coordination at that age, but will do absolutely nothing to advance the high school boys programs.

maybe someday there will be a girl who will make me eat that statement. fine by me. i'll take my chances.

as far as the AAA (or lets call it summer club hockey) if the tourney wants and the other teams don't object a girls team there or wants to let them play ok by me.

so bottom line for me it comes down to development of players. i guess i don't take the time to type out my points, sorry.

so i end with what i started
so would i like another card? what the $^%# does that mean.

[spin-o-rama]

Ok Silly, you’ve come full circle. Now you’re taking up the issue from the boys angle again.

There are divisions of play all over all sports. It is only at the top that there is no division. College, Juniors, bantams, girls, sled hockey are all levels to prevent sandbaggers from ruining it. Danny Almonte had a fake birth cert, you want to put boys in skirts. I can hear your son singing with Murray’s, ”I’m a boy, I’m a boy, but my dad won’t admit it. I’m a boy, I’m a boy, but if I say I am, I get it.”

Girls A level is equal to the youth A level in name only. Girls A would likely lose to youth B, girls B would likely lose to youth C. A boy does not need to play girls hockey to find an appropriate level to play. The divisions already exist on the youth side.

The issue for Oscar Pistorius competing in the Olympics was if his prosthetics gave him an advantage, but depending on what side of the be you woke up on, you would demand that he remain at the SO level to help promote it or claim that he was stealing a regular's spot.

Roseau, Rudy, Milan HS, etc. These great stories go away when lines are drawn that restrict them. Part of what people like about sports also dies too. People like stories of Davids playing with the Goliaths, not Goliaths playing with the Davids.

Last year Edina squirt As had 2 girls on the team. 1 was a 1st year squirt. Shakopee had a very dominant U10A player. She scored 3 goals a game, carrying the whole team. Which family made the better decision? That can be debated, however they all deserved the right to make that decision.

I’ve gone around the ring once with your circular arguments. Please spare us from experiencing déjà vu all over again.

[spin-o-rama]

so would i like another card? what the $^%# does that mean.

It means draw from the "what would Bobby Riggs do" pile.

[murray]

so would i like another card? what the $^%# does that mean.

It means draw from the "what would Bobby Riggs do" pile.

Bobby Riggs? I had to look the reference up on the net. What the hell does that have to do with this discussion? Since this event took place before my birth I will say was there women tennis prior? Did she have a league to play in? And Do women tennis players play with the men?
I want a few more analogies from all you to
prove this ridiculous point.

Let the righteous be heard let the girls play wherever. I have been shown the light. Sweet Jesus isn't it wonderful

And spin what ever the &$@$. By all means if that was a reference to me being sexist or something of the sort. By all means pm me. We can figure out a solution.
I think it is time for people to start using thier name.

[This is silly!]

Ok Silly, you’ve come full circle. Now you’re taking up the issue from the boys angle again.

There are divisions of play all over all sports. It is only at the top that there is no division. College, Juniors, bantams, girls, sled hockey are all levels to prevent sandbaggers from ruining it. Danny Almonte had a fake birth cert, you want to put boys in skirts. I can hear your son singing with Murray’s, ”I’m a boy, I’m a boy, but my dad won’t admit it. I’m a boy, I’m a boy, but if I say I am, I get it.”

Girls A level is equal to the youth A level in name only. Girls A would likely lose to youth B, girls B would likely lose to youth C. A boy does not need to play girls hockey to find an appropriate level to play. The divisions already exist on the youth side.

The issue for Oscar Pistorius competing in the Olympics was if his prosthetics gave him an advantage, but depending on what side of the be you woke up on, you would demand that he remain at the SO level to help promote it or claim that he was stealing a regular's spot.

Roseau, Rudy, Milan HS, etc. These great stories go away when lines are drawn that restrict them. Part of what people like about sports also dies too. People like stories of Davids playing with the Goliaths, not Goliaths playing with the Davids.

Last year Edina squirt As had 2 girls on the team. 1 was a 1st year squirt. Shakopee had a very dominant U10A player. She scored 3 goals a game, carrying the whole team. Which family made the better decision? That can be debated, however they all deserved the right to make that decision.

I’ve gone around the ring once with your circular arguments. Please spare us from experiencing déjà vu all over again.

FYI Spin - you are the one with the circular arguments. You always seem to fall back on RARE examples from the past that though it may be true in that instance - does that necessarily make it right? No, fact is you have your opinion on the subject and I have mine - the difference between us is that I acknowledge your view point and your right to that opinion but you don't acknowledge mine because you, like all too many leaders of our country, are too busy worrying about the RIGHTS of people (girls to play with boys) that just happen to affect the RIGHTS (boys playing with girls) of other people. See I'm all for defending peoples' rights, but when they affect OTHER PEOPLES' RIGHTS, that is where I have a problem. All I've ever said and defended is that I don't think it is fair that girls be allowed to play with or vs the boys - plain and simple double standard. If that puts me in the minority I am TOTALLY okay with that. I guess I'll just have to work towards and look forward to the day when Minnesota Hockey finally makes it BOYS hockey instead of YOUTH hockey or maybe just start a BOYS hockey division to go along with youth and girls hockey. That way at least my MALE grand children can ALSO have a CHOICE!