Wisconsin Fire

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

Can someone tell me what different experience the Fire exposes kids to, except the obvious $25,000 price tag?

$25,000? Is that really the cost to play for the Fire? I don't have a problem with it, not judging, just curious if that is the real cost.

No, take off a zero. $25,000 was posted by someone without a clue.

We payed 2200 for our guy to play with the Fire last season.

Benefits included:

- Playing with your age.
- Playing against the top kids in your age group worldwide.
- Played the Russians (won 3-2 in OT), Slovakians (lost 6-5 in OT), the top Canadian teams (Toronto Marlies, Gatineau etc.), played against the National Champions Detroit Compuware (3-1 Detroit) and runner-ups Chicago Mission (lost 4-2) with their full winter squads (as opposed to watered down summer versions).
- Played in North America's Premier Tournaments for the age group featuring North America's best players in each age group, including Bauer Invitational made final 4), Quebec Internation Pee Wee Championship (made elite eight), Silver Stick.
- Met and played against teams coached by Mark Messier, Keith Tkachuk and other elite coaches, former and NHL players

... and did all of this without sacrficing anything back home, including a fantastic Tournament in Rosea (lost thrilling final vs Edina in shootout). Played a full slate of games against the best teams in the area including Wayzata, Edina and Eden Prairie. Great games with each. Beat them all and lost to them all.

All in all the best hockey dollars we spent and got the best of all worlds. Phenominal experience and memories he will carry for life. Wouldn't trade it for thr world.

[InigoMontoya]

I want to make sure I completely understand this. Many positives about the Fire program, and the only negative anyone could come up with regarding the Fire was that it cost $25k, which was dispelled by an actual checkwriter. Why again are so many people (most of whom have likely never been to a practice or game, or even spoken with anyone involved with the program) spending so much time, energy, and money to put the kybosh on it?

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

2 reasons likely;

1.) some people are intimidated or threatened by things they are not apart of or that are different from them or their beliefs

2.) it's easier to believe the things you hear rather than seek the truth, particulary if you have no vested interest

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

... they are "unclassified", whatever that means.

WAHA declares Unclassified teams the same as AAA teams;

"undistracted team that registers three or more players from districted teams."
http://www.waha-hockey.com/WAHABook/201 ... frame=true

The key wording in this new rule set by MNHockey is that if you reside in MN and want to play out of state, you must find a program that is not offered here in the state ...

should be good then ... Minnesota Hockey doesn't offer "unclassified" or "unclassified AAA" programs

[just the facts]

I will try to shed some light on this:

1) The reason that the Fire is having issues today is because 3 years ago the people running the 1993 Fire had some issues with following the rules and WAHA changed their rules because of it.

2) AAA hockey can cost anywhere from $5000.00 to $15,000.00 per family which would include ice time, jersey's, equipment, referees, fees for the league you are in, tournament fees, billet fees, and travel expenses. If you are in the Tier 1 Elite League playing Minor/Major Midget you are at the top end of the scale playing anywhere from 65 to 90 hockey games so that number could be more. Some teams are hire at this level, a good example from last season is, the Minor/Midget Colorado Thunderbird's who won the national championship and played 85 games. I would bet good money that each family paid between $18,000.00 and $22,000.00 to be on that team depending on how much each family traveled with their player.

3) I think that AAA hockey is where your kid should play if he/she meets this criteria- he/she is old enough to handle being away from home, is at the top level of age group in Minnesota, has a lot of passion for the game, is a very good student, wants to play college or professional hockey, is at an association that has small numbers and does not have anyone to compete with, does not receive the coaching that will assist you getting to the next level, and you can afford it.

4) I watched a whole season of my son playing in the Tier 1 Elite League and I can tell you this; the competition on a weekly bases is stiffer than I have seen in Minnesota high school or at the MAHA level over the past 12 years. The 4 teams in Chicago and the 5 teams in Detroit could come to Minnesota and beat our teams at a 75%, or better, clip at all levels they are that good. Now the only exception to that is if we could put the Blades, Machine, or any of the other top AAA Minnesota summer team vs these teams in the winter.

5) Everyone likes to use Shattuck as a bench mark for AAA so here it is:

Tier 1 18 and under Prep team (Automatic invite to Nationals)
Record 39-11-5 for $30,000.00
Record in the Minnesota Elite League 12-3-2
Lost to our best 20 players from the Minnesota Elite League 10-3
Played 3 of our better high school teams and won all 3 by a score of 13-7
Lost in the quarter finals at Nationals
National champion at this level Chicago Mission

Tier 1 16 and under Minor/Midget team (Automatic invite to Nationals)
Record 40-9-2 for $30,000.00
Record against fall MN Blades 2-0-1
Did not play any other Minnesota team during the year
Lost in the Quarters at Nationals
National Champion Colorado Thunderbird's

Tier 1 Major Bantam 1995 (Automatic invite to Nationals)
Record 52-10-2 for $30,000.00
Record VS MAHA teams 16-0-0 by a score of 144 to 25
Lost in the Semis at Nationals
National Champion Honeybaked from Detroit

Looking at this info Shattuck is a great AAA hockey program, expensive, great against Minnesota hockey except when we put our best 20 on the ice, and there are just as good AAA programs out there.

6) I really think that MAHA is going to need to re-think its stance in the future on AAA teams during the winter because I think that USA hockey will encourage it. Hockey is very expensive and we are seeing numbers go down because other sports are cheaper and what is going to happen is you are going to see more and more players leave because they do not have anyone to play with at the association or high school level. I wonder how many hockey families do not move to Minnesota because they realize that this is occurring. Could you imagine if we put 2 or 3 AAA teams together during the season how much fun those kids would have. The rest of the kids in Minnesota would have just as much fun or more because it would give them more opportunities and more playing time. So we take 60 kids out of association or high school at each level, would we really miss them? I don't think so and instead of getting 10 to 15 Minnesota kids drafted per year we could have 20 to 40 which is where we should be with our numbers.

I know I am on my soap box but here is the skinny; I bet there are 60 AAA players at each level in this state that would love to play at that level every year and would jump at the chance. And I know there are a lot of old school people reading this and saying that we have our traditions in this state with MAHA and the high school tournament but could you imagine the interest that these 3 teams would draw every year with college and professional scouts? And I bet when you could have the National Championships in the State of Hockey we would draw a huge crowd from Minnesota and Nationally.

I am done now, thanks for reading.

[O-townClown]

1. I really think that MAHA is going to need to re-think its stance in the future on AAA teams during the winter because I think that USA hockey will encourage it.

2. Hockey is very expensive and we are seeing numbers go down because other sports are cheaper and what is going to happen is you are going to see more and more players leave because they do not have anyone to play with at the association or high school level.

3. I wonder how many hockey families do not move to Minnesota because they realize that this is occurring.

4. Could you imagine if we put 2 or 3 AAA teams together during the season how much fun those kids would have. The rest of the kids in Minnesota would have just as much fun or more because it would give them more opportunities and more playing time. So we take 60 kids out of association or high school at each level, would we really miss them?

5. I don't think so and instead of getting 10 to 15 Minnesota kids drafted per year we could have 20 to 40 which is where we should be with our numbers.

6. I know I am on my soap box but here is the skinny; I bet there are 60 AAA players at each level in this state that would love to play at that level every year and would jump at the chance.

7. And I know there are a lot of old school people reading this and saying that we have our traditions in this state with MAHA and the high school tournament but could you imagine the interest that these 3 teams would draw every year with college and professional scouts?

8. And I bet when you could have the National Championships in the State of Hockey we would draw a huge crowd from Minnesota and Nationally.

1 - I don't think Minnesota Hockey needs to rethink anything. You think they should. That doesn't mean the need to. USA Hockey doesn't put pressure Minnesota because the affiliate runs itself. In the words of our affiliate's past prez - Minnesota is nirvana for hockey issues.

2 - So your remedy for the high cost of hockey driving kids out of the sport is more cost? The numbers of HS-eligible players that leave for NTDP, USHL or other Juniors, or other options is still down quite a bit from its high, so the numbers don't back up your argument here.

3 - Why would you wonder that? It's like wondering if ants dream about playing soccer. You know, I was thinking of moving to Minnesota but decided not to because this is occurring.

4 - How could you put "two or three" AAA teams together? If Tier I is allowed in Minnesota - and I've said this many times - there won't be "two or three" AAA teams or even five like Michigan. There will be dozens like you see in Massachusetts. You act like somehow the top Minnesota players are going to magically get on the same team. I don't know how that could happen. Walk me through it.

5 - How do you define "where we should be"? Minnesota has more kids drafted than any other state and more than its fair proportion of registered USA Hockey players. Why should it have even more? Also, did you ever figure that the ones getting drafted are being selected without playing Tier I? Now you want to take them out of the traditional HS channel. They'll still get drafted and this creates more drafted players how?

6 - There are kids that would love to do this? Who do you suppose they are? The children of the parents who concocted this idea. That's my hunch. You allude to them probably not being from the mega associations. As it is now the Twin Cities can absorb those from lesser associations with private high schools like Benilde, Holy Angels, and Hill-Murray. Are there really this many kids that need to get to Tier I? The outstate kids you theoretically could help aren't making it to practices anywhere other than their HS.

7 - What three teams? Top Minnesota prospects are scouted very closely. Always have been and always will be. If anything, it is way better for kids the way it is now. When Brainerd played at the Schwan two years ago and the scouts were watching the big defenseman it is possible for another kid to stand out and catch someone's eye. Take that NHL prospect off to AAA Midget games with other scouted players and nobody wants to go watch Minnesota HS hockey.

8 - USA Hockey nationals won't draw well anywhere. I don't see Minnesotans caring much to see eleven teams from Phoenix, Dallas, Southern Cal, Atlanta, DC, etc... and just one from home.

[old goalie85]

O-town,,,, very well said.

[Task Force 34]

What rules did the 93 Fire not follow and what was subsequently changed that has led to the controversy today?

Sounds like you have some valuable insight....

[O-townClown]

What rules did the 93 Fire not follow and what was subsequently changed that has led to the controversy today?

Sounds like you have some valuable insight....

I can't recall exactly, but they were administrative. Was the Program Director a certified coach and the actual bench coaches didn't have Level 3 like they needed? Something like that. It wasn't like Danny Almonte suited up for them.

[blueblood]

You need to go into politics with the ability to retort like that.

BTW, we need a governor in MN.....

[greybeard58]

The incident mentioned was the last of many years the rosters had been suspect. The former WAHA registrar who passed away that year would always vouch for the roster as signed and the former President of WAHA would back him. The team was checked in at a USA Hockey Central District tournament to advance to the national tournament and one coach never had USA Hockey certification and the other coach had his expired on 12/31 as he has failed to renew his certification. I believe the team was not allowed to play (not sure of this).
The following year some parts might be missing as I know I was not given the whole story but in late fall the Central District was not going allow the fire to field any teams even though they were already formed. Members of Mn. Hockey that were on the USA Hockey board convinced the Central District to allow WAHA to register the fire teams so the players would not suffer. With the old president for WAHA still there the fire was to follow certain procedures to register in Wisconsin. Parents in Wisconsin started to complain that out of state residents were taking spots on Wisconsin teams (not only the Fire) that Wisconsin players should have. From what I have been told Wisconsin will also have the out of state waiver policy with all non-Wisconsin resident players.
The incident mentioned above ,the Central District of USA Hockey could have suspended all WAHA teams at the Tier I level for the failure of WAHA to properly register their teams and have properly certified coaches as spelled out not only in the registration materials but also in the Affiliate agreement WAHA signed.
I would believe that WAHA with a new registrar and President are looking out for their own interests and for Wisconsin residents.

[Task Force 34]

Any new updates from WAHA or MN Hockey on this topic or has it come to rest?

[5thgraders]

Greybeard do not speak about topics involving the Fire when half of what you talk about is true and half is FALSE. I will let the readers decide which half is true. As Greybeard and his vested interest is to see the Fire Fizzle.
Throw out the lies and false statements to the readers but you are not smarter than a 5th grader when discussing anything about the Fire.

[MrBoDangles]

Greybeard do not speak about topics involving the Fire when half of what you talk about is true and half is FALSE. I will let the readers decide which half is true. As Greybeard and his vested interest is to see the Fire Fizzle.
Throw out the lies and false statements to the readers but you are not smarter than a 5th grader when discussing anything about the Fire.

Why don't you clear it up for everyone then?

[Task Force 34]

Does anyone have the real story?

[hockeyover40]

No, I think you nailed it.

[jancze5]

concur with the above statement. Too many people concerned with their own agenda. Tier 1 hockey nationwide has no "only people in my state can roster" rule, why does WAHA have it and why doesn't Minnesota worry about the kids that want to play here and let those that don't want to just go. Who really cares. Let's be honest, these are kids and the hockey lifespan for most is 8-10 years, a lifetime if they are fortunate to be allowed too.

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

well said jancze. Tier 1 rosters nationwide are commonly made up of kids from multiple states. This is a non-issue nationwide, brought up locally only by those who wish to extinguish the fire and, grasping at any straws they think may support their personal vendeta

[JSR]

concur with the above statement. Too many people concerned with their own agenda. Tier 1 hockey nationwide has no "only people in my state can roster" rule, why does WAHA have it and why doesn't Minnesota worry about the kids that want to play here and let those that don't want to just go. Who really cares. Let's be honest, these are kids and the hockey lifespan for most is 8-10 years, a lifetime if they are fortunate to be allowed too.

I am not aware of this so called WAHA rule? Where do you find this rule? I am aware of the Madison Capitols, GB Jr. Gambler & Milwaukee Jr. Admirals rostering many players from several different states both this year and in years past. Again not sure where you find this rule? I thought I remembered a rule stating that a Wisconsin based Tier 1 team had to have "X" number of state resident players ont he roster but not that it had to be "only people in my state roster", to my recollection the number was fairly low and WI puts out pretty good hockey talent so it's not like undeserving kids are taking away roster spots.

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

exactly. on our fire team last year, wisconsin players more than held their own - in fact, our best player was a wisconsin kid, as well as one of our goalies.

same goalie is back this year , all 3 forwards, and in fact, we have added another - who may well be our best player yet.

It is not difficult finding elite wisconsin players - far from it. the Fire is a good mix of players from both states the program borders. Not unlike most of the tier 1 teams nationally which fall geographically close to 2 or more states.

[JSR]

1. I really think that MAHA is going to need to re-think its stance in the future on AAA teams during the winter because I think that USA hockey will encourage it.

2. Hockey is very expensive and we are seeing numbers go down because other sports are cheaper and what is going to happen is you are going to see more and more players leave because they do not have anyone to play with at the association or high school level.

3. I wonder how many hockey families do not move to Minnesota because they realize that this is occurring.

4. Could you imagine if we put 2 or 3 AAA teams together during the season how much fun those kids would have. The rest of the kids in Minnesota would have just as much fun or more because it would give them more opportunities and more playing time. So we take 60 kids out of association or high school at each level, would we really miss them?

5. I don't think so and instead of getting 10 to 15 Minnesota kids drafted per year we could have 20 to 40 which is where we should be with our numbers.

6. I know I am on my soap box but here is the skinny; I bet there are 60 AAA players at each level in this state that would love to play at that level every year and would jump at the chance.

7. And I know there are a lot of old school people reading this and saying that we have our traditions in this state with MAHA and the high school tournament but could you imagine the interest that these 3 teams would draw every year with college and professional scouts?

8. And I bet when you could have the National Championships in the State of Hockey we would draw a huge crowd from Minnesota and Nationally.

1 - I don't think Minnesota Hockey needs to rethink anything. You think they should. That doesn't mean the need to. USA Hockey doesn't put pressure Minnesota because the affiliate runs itself. In the words of our affiliate's past prez - Minnesota is nirvana for hockey issues.

2 - So your remedy for the high cost of hockey driving kids out of the sport is more cost? The numbers of HS-eligible players that leave for NTDP, USHL or other Juniors, or other options is still down quite a bit from its high, so the numbers don't back up your argument here.

3 - Why would you wonder that? It's like wondering if ants dream about playing soccer. You know, I was thinking of moving to Minnesota but decided not to because this is occurring.

4 - How could you put "two or three" AAA teams together? If Tier I is allowed in Minnesota - and I've said this many times - there won't be "two or three" AAA teams or even five like Michigan. There will be dozens like you see in Massachusetts. You act like somehow the top Minnesota players are going to magically get on the same team. I don't know how that could happen. Walk me through it.

5 - How do you define "where we should be"? Minnesota has more kids drafted than any other state and more than its fair proportion of registered USA Hockey players. Why should it have even more? Also, did you ever figure that the ones getting drafted are being selected without playing Tier I? Now you want to take them out of the traditional HS channel. They'll still get drafted and this creates more drafted players how?

6 - There are kids that would love to do this? Who do you suppose they are? The children of the parents who concocted this idea. That's my hunch. You allude to them probably not being from the mega associations. As it is now the Twin Cities can absorb those from lesser associations with private high schools like Benilde, Holy Angels, and Hill-Murray. Are there really this many kids that need to get to Tier I? The outstate kids you theoretically could help aren't making it to practices anywhere other than their HS.

7 - What three teams? Top Minnesota prospects are scouted very closely. Always have been and always will be. If anything, it is way better for kids the way it is now. When Brainerd played at the Schwan two years ago and the scouts were watching the big defenseman it is possible for another kid to stand out and catch someone's eye. Take that NHL prospect off to AAA Midget games with other scouted players and nobody wants to go watch Minnesota HS hockey.

8 - USA Hockey nationals won't draw well anywhere. I don't see Minnesotans caring much to see eleven teams from Phoenix, Dallas, Southern Cal, Atlanta, DC, etc... and just one from home.

Otown, the only one I have a problem with is #4. Why would there be "dozens". It is pretty simple to regulate this. For instance, WAHA has a rule that states that Tier 1 cannot make up more than 5% of the total registered hockey participants in any given age level. In MN your bylaws could say 1% or 2% to keep the number of organizations in check. Further no Tier 1 organization can have more than one team at any age level and cannot field mroe than 6 total teams nor can they be affiliated with any other association or organization (in other words, no feedder teams). All of this helps keep under control the number of winter Tier 1 organizations. Just an idea

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

7 - What three teams? Top Minnesota prospects are scouted very closely. Always have been and always will be. If anything, it is way better for kids the way it is now. When Brainerd played at the Schwan two years ago and the scouts were watching the big defenseman it is possible for another kid to stand out and catch someone's eye. Take that NHL prospect off to AAA Midget games with other scouted players and nobody wants to go watch Minnesota HS hockey.

Apparently, that's what everyone is afraid of ... however, it's an unfounded fear (in my opinion). I watched a couple of games last year between teams that no one was drafted off of, and it was great hockey. The lack of a high profile "marquee player" didn't hurt the game at all.

Minnesota High School Hockey is a great stand-alone "product" (for lack of a better word). The sheer volume of kids (over 3,000?) that get to experience the game at that level makes Minnesota unique and always will. If we lose the top 100-200 kids (to Tier 1 Hockey, Shattuck, NTDP etc.), it won't diminish the overall "product" or experience for the players.

Elite level hockey and Minnesota High School Hockey are not mutually exclusive. Minnesota High School Hockey is strong enough to absorb losses of 200 players who wish to go a different route. The two (High Scool/Association & AAA/Tier 1) can exist in harmony.

[JSR]

7 - What three teams? Top Minnesota prospects are scouted very closely. Always have been and always will be. If anything, it is way better for kids the way it is now. When Brainerd played at the Schwan two years ago and the scouts were watching the big defenseman it is possible for another kid to stand out and catch someone's eye. Take that NHL prospect off to AAA Midget games with other scouted players and nobody wants to go watch Minnesota HS hockey.

Apparently, that's what everyone is afraid of ... however, it's an unfounded fear (in my opinion). I watched a couple of games last year between teams that no one was drafted off of, and it was great hockey. The lack of a high profile "marquee player" didn't hurt the game at all.

Minnesota High School Hockey is a great stand-alone "product" (for lack of a better word). The sheer volume of kids (over 3,000?) that get to experience the game at that level makes Minnesota unique and always will. If we lose the top 100-200 kids (to Tier 1 Hockey, Shattuck, NTDP etc.), it won't diminish the overall "product" or experience for the players.

Elite level hockey and Minnesota High School Hockey are not mutually exclusive. Minnesota High School Hockey is strong enough to absorb losses of 200 players who wish to go a different route. The two (High Scool/Association & AAA/Tier 1) can exist in harmony.

Again, we are not as hockey crazy down here in Wisconsin as you guys are. But we do have 3 Tier 1 teams and the do not take anything away from our high school hockey. In fact if you go to a Tier 1 game you'll see parents and siblings in the stands and that is about it. At high school games you'll find students, teachers, friends, parents, siblings, youth hockey kids etc.... It's a great atmosphere and 95% of the crowd doesn't even know what Tier 1 MM hockey is or that it even exists to go watch. Tier 1 hockey does not detract or take anything away from High School hockey in the state sit exists in, I really doubt it would do anything to the great tradition in MN.

[O-townClown]

Otown, the only one I have a problem with is #4. Why would there be "dozens". It is pretty simple to regulate this. For instance, WAHA has a rule that states that Tier 1 cannot make up more than 5% of the total registered hockey participants in any given age level. In MN your bylaws could say 1% or 2% to keep the number of organizations in check. Further no Tier 1 organization can have more than one team at any age level and cannot field mroe than 6 total teams nor can they be affiliated with any other association or organization (in other words, no feedder teams). All of this helps keep under control the number of winter Tier 1 organizations. Just an idea

So who are those teams?

[O-townClown]

Apparently, that's what everyone is afraid of ... however, it's an unfounded fear (in my opinion). I watched a couple of games last year between teams that no one was drafted off of, and it was great hockey. The lack of a high profile "marquee player" didn't hurt the game at all.

Minnesota High School Hockey is a great stand-alone "product" (for lack of a better word). The sheer volume of kids (over 3,000?) that get to experience the game at that level makes Minnesota unique and always will. If we lose the top 100-200 kids (to Tier 1 Hockey, Shattuck, NTDP etc.), it won't diminish the overall "product" or experience for the players.

Elite level hockey and Minnesota High School Hockey are not mutually exclusive. Minnesota High School Hockey is strong enough to absorb losses of 200 players who wish to go a different route. The two (High Scool/Association & AAA/Tier 1) can exist in harmony.

By anybody I meant college and pro scouts. You'll always have the MCI crowd.

Why lose any more than the dozen or so that are lost? It's like you are inventing a way to lose 100 or 200 when there's no reason.