Wisconsin Fire

[Task Force 34]

Once again - Have WAHA and MN Hockey come to any sort of agreement for the Fire this season? Sounds like the 97 and 99 Teams are the only two being rostered. I think if we look back 8 Pages, that was the intent of the thread.

Anyone...

[O-townClown]

Tier 1 AAA would not hurt anybody !!! Let me say that again ... Tier 1 AAA would not hurt anybody..

If you say it enough, does that make it true.

I spent an hour tonight with our coach-in-chief and his solution to all of our affiliate's ills is to dictate that all kids have to play where they live. Do I send him back to Minnesota?

[Quasar]

quote="Task Force 34"]Once again - Have WAHA and MN Hockey come to any sort of agreement for the Fire this season? Sounds like the 97 and 99 Teams are the only two being rostered. I think if we look back 8 Pages, that was the intent of the thread.

Anyone...

Your right !! I'm done talkin'

[O-townClown]

My son played for 1 year at the college level then decided to do other things..

I just couldn't leave this subject alone. I made the initial arrangements for my son to play in Canada.. He couldn't leave his friends and family. Not surprising for a 15 year old. I can't believe that I was willing to let him go..

He is now involved in youth hockey... The other day we were talking about his team and teammates and what they accomplished, when he blurted out "God I wish I would have gone to Canada" This is the reason for my sudden interest in this particular subject.

It would be nice for there to be some accommodation for the kids and parents that are willing to make the big plunge...

As for me .. I think this subject is best left to those that are fighting the battle today.. Nothing is ever easy... And I think that the Hockey people I've met over the years could figure this out to every ones benefit.

Context here, please.

He played at what college? (At least give us the type...WCHA, D-III, etc...) On scholarship?

You wanted him to leave at age 15 for what? Juniors? If so, kids today DON'T HAVE TO LEAVE the U.S. for Juniors and have the added benefit of PRESERVING NCAA ELIGIBILITY.

He regrets not going why? Was his HS hockey experience not a good one?

Why didn't he go?

For at least 25 years (that I know of) Minnesotans have taken a pass on HS hockey in favor of USHL teams. Others swing a "before and after" accomodation.

One poster above mentions the problem with Minnesota not have a strong Junior league. As Greybeard says, what does that have to do with youth hockey.

"I want Tier I youth" and then expecting MAHA to make it happen is not an action plan. Bring a proposal, address the concerns to the satisfaction of those concerned, and be prepared for more questions. Hockey in Minnesota is not broken in the eyes of most.

Good luck. Methinks the Minnesota hockey landscape remains unchanged for a good while.

[royals dad]

Well .. Here's part of the problem.



Here's what I think. The base of the pyramid is B2 C and Lower...

"the broader the base of the pyramid the higher the peak"
Herb Brooks

He was referring to the base being number of kids in youth hockey. I used the reference because I thought most people were familiar with it.

[Quasar]

"the broader the base of the pyramid the higher the peak"
Herb Brooks

He was referring to the base being number of kids in youth hockey. I used the reference because I thought most people were familiar with it.

And I was using slavery and women voting as an example (extreme perhaps) of just because something is the status quo does not mean it is right.

I'm finding that sometimes the "Big Picture" just flies over a lot of heads

[O-townClown]

Look from the other angle OTC. What is wrong with your affiliates? All of them or just one or two of them?

Maybe your CIC is the one who needs to get sent someplace to learn his job. Is your CIC working with and supporting your younger coaches so they are able to do their best?

Rather than talk to the CIC who is gonna toe the party line why don't you catch up to a couple of the kids and parents and ask them what is up with the desire to transfer, the answers might scare the h*ll out of you though, be warned.

I have looked at this from all angles. What is 'wrong' in our affiliate is summed up as low participation compounded by challenging geography. A lot of people focus on growth, but we still have fewer than 400 registered 7- and 8-year olds in the entire state. Our nation's 4th most populous state.

Our Coach in Chief, as far as I can tell, only teaches the certification courses. I doubt he works with any coaches and I doubt they'd want his help. Coaching doesn't seem to show up on any list of our affiliate's 25 biggest hurdles. As I said, these are all tied to low participation and horrible geographic challenges. (One program does not have another within 100 miles of them.)

Our Coach in Chief doesn't toe the party line at all. Like I mentioned, he thinks a model where you have to play where the affiliate says (like Minnesota) is the solution to all of our problems. That's a radical idea.

Everyone has to understand what role the rinks play in this. We only have one municipal rink with just one sheet our of 17 facilities, about half single-pad. In Minnesota the municipally owned rinks don't have a real big voice in how MAHA governs. Maybe they would if the youth hockey model weren't looking out for them the way it does.

A Tier I program needs a place to play and the org will be staffed by paid hockey pelople. It is hard to imagine city-owned rinks giving such organizations first crack at ice. Obviously Made is a perfect place for such a program.

But consider the differences between Minnesota and other areas in terms of rink ownership. That explains much of why things are the way they are here.

[StillAnEagle]

I guess to me it seems like if you just look at the state, then yes it looks like MN is overrepresented. But I don't think we can compare us to the other states (or can we?) because they more or less operate under different rules than we do (not true?). So the comparison to me would be MN philosophy vs everyone else. And if that's the case, then is MN over or underrepresented...

BTW no one "has" to answer that. It's just a question I've been asking myself.

Read what you wrote. Does that make any sense to you?

"I don't think we can compare us to the other states"

"The comparison to me would be MN philosophy vs everyone else"

I've compared Minnesota to the other areas, and Minnesota is WAY overrepresented.

Who does a better job of producing NCAA players or NHL Draft picks? Maybe Ontario, but that's a tough one to measure because of how many play Canadian Junior hockey.

The answer is so obvious when you look at data. Minnesota does not have a flawed player developmental model. Some people look at things only anecdotally and conclude Minnesota is lacking because they see a Patrick Kane, Sidney Crosby, or Alexander Ovechkin.

Yes, the Minnesota approach may be lacking to a very, very small degree when you look at producing the best of the best - a "best in generation" talent. However, this can't be proven scientifically because we just don't have enough of a sample size. The next ubergreat player might be from the Gopher State and then people wouldn't ask the question.

Several options are available to someone that is clearly better than their peers. The NTDP and USHL are chosen frequently by kids like Erik Johnson and Blake Wheeler.

What's missing here that you can prove is needed?

Nothing.

I've been out for a while here...
Yes I guess it still does make sense to me. In your opinion, if MN went Tier 1 would it help or hurt our numbers in the draft?

[yeti]

98 Fire is scheduled to play in the Wrrior Invite in Detroit (Oct 15-17) as well as the 99 Fire.

I see the fire teams have disappeared off the list for this tourney, wonder what happened, anybody have any info on this development?

[O-townClown]

I've been out for a while here...

Yes I guess it still does make sense to me. In your opinion, if MN went Tier 1 would it help or hurt our numbers in the draft?

I don't see it helping at all. Are you talking Tier I youth? People are talking about the breadth of the base. We need to keep our kids playing hockey at the early stages. Tier I PW teams don't help with that.

Minnesota develops enough high-level players. Where people are being failed is probably with low-level HS hockey. As a result, there is the Elite League (which is working) and the possibility for a few older kids to go to the USHL. Yeah, if you are from Two Harbors a move like that probably makes sense. So since there is already an "escape route" for kids to find their home, does it really make sense to introduce Tier I Major Midget hockey? Who does it help?

[MrBoDangles]

I've been out for a while here...

Yes I guess it still does make sense to me. In your opinion, if MN went Tier 1 would it help or hurt our numbers in the draft?

I don't see it helping at all. Are you talking Tier I youth? People are talking about the breadth of the base. We need to keep our kids playing hockey at the early stages. Tier I PW teams don't help with that.

Minnesota develops enough high-level players. Where people are being failed is probably with low-level HS hockey. As a result, there is the Elite League (which is working) and the possibility for a few older kids to go to the USHL. Yeah, if you are from Two Harbors a move like that probably makes sense. So since there is already an "escape route" for kids to find their home, does it really make sense to introduce Tier I Major Midget hockey? Who does it help?

Until they can "escape" They are stuck developing slower in these bad situations you describe. Competition is key. Yes, it makes big time sense.

Has the Fire hurt Minnesota hockey? The Fire is YOUTH hockey..

[O-townClown]

They are stuck developing slower in these bad situations you describe. Competition is key. Yes, it makes big time sense.

Are you talking about youth players being 'stuck'? At ages like 12 or down it really doesn't make much sense to worry about it.

Competition takes a lot of forms. A kid in a big association might be trying to make the Wayzata Pee Wee A while a kid from a small association could be concerned with carrying his B team (they don't field an A) to a bunch of wins.

Your assumption is that kids "develop slower" in "bad situations". Did Anze Kopitar "develop slower" because he lived in Slovenia and not Slovakia? Did Dustin Penner "develop slower" because he was from a small town and not Winnipeg? Did James Van Riemsdyk "develop slower" because he played Tier II hockey instead of Tier I up through age 14?

At older ages this might be an issue. Not Pee Wees on down.

[MrBoDangles]

They are stuck developing slower in these bad situations you describe. Competition is key. Yes, it makes big time sense.

Are you talking about youth players being 'stuck'? At ages like 12 or down it really doesn't make much sense to worry about it.

Competition takes a lot of forms. A kid in a big association might be trying to make the Wayzata Pee Wee A while a kid from a small association could be concerned with carrying his B team (they don't field an A) to a bunch of wins.

Your assumption is that kids "develop slower" in "bad situations". Did Anze Kopitar "develop slower" because he lived in Slovenia and not Slovakia? Did Dustin Penner "develop slower" because he was from a small town and not Winnipeg? Did James Van Riemsdyk "develop slower" because he played Tier II hockey instead of Tier I up through age 14?

At older ages this might be an issue. Not Pee Wees on down.

Did you talk about 'escape'?


YES, I "assume" that kids develop slower in bad situations.

"Did," you have to dig deep?

Carrying a C team will turn a kid into even a bigger stud then? Even less to get in Jimmy's way.

Did the Fire hurt Minnesota hockey?

[O-townClown]

Did the Fire hurt Minnesota hockey?

Bo, you keep asking the same dang question. Do you realize it can be answered any way you want?

Annika Sorenstam played an event on the PGA Tour. She fared well and missed the cut by a few shots. "See! I told you she could compete out there!" "She played the best she could and never threated to make birdies...she could play a whole season and not make a cut."

Who's right?

People see what they want to see.

Did the Fire hurt Minnesota hockey?

No.

Yes.

Which is right?

Whatever you say, you'll be right.

Minnesota Hockey is letting the Fire do pretty much whatever they want. Despite this, it isn't really growing or thriving.

Maybe the question to ask is, "Does Minnesota hockey hurt the Fire?"

[O-townClown]

YES, I "assume" that kids develop slower in bad situations.

Only problem is people don't agree on what is a bad situation.

Someone asks a question like, "if Minnesota had Tier I youth hockey would more players get drafted?" and it can be addressed. Not answered with certainty, but some answers can be bandied about and people can state the case for why they're right.

I asked rhetorically if Slovenia is a "bad situation". It certainly isn't Slovakia, Sweden, or Saskatchewan. Maybe Kopitar is better as a result. Read the "Freak of Nurture" chapter in BLIND SIDE if you don't agree it is possible. If you are a top player in Slovenia, chances are they rely on you and expedite your path to the national team. If you are a top player in White Bear the other parents are jealous and your youth coaches monitor your ice time to make sure you don't play any more than your share, and they yell at you to "pass the puck" every time you have it.

Look at where Minnesota's NHL players are from. Hedican, Pitlick, Hendrickson, Langenbrunner, Housley, etc.... They are from places that fielded good teams when they were there, but for the most part those cities have NEVER won a state HS championship.

Why is that?

[MrBoDangles]

YES, I "assume" that kids develop slower in bad situations.

Only problem is people don't agree on what is a bad situation.

Someone asks a question like, "if Minnesota had Tier I youth hockey would more players get drafted?" and it can be addressed. Not answered with certainty, but some answers can be bandied about and people can state the case for why they're right.

I asked rhetorically if Slovenia is a "bad situation". It certainly isn't Slovakia, Sweden, or Saskatchewan. Maybe Kopitar is better as a result. Read the "Freak of Nurture" chapter in BLIND SIDE if you don't agree it is possible. If you are a top player in Slovenia, chances are they rely on you and expedite your path to the national team. If you are a top player in White Bear the other parents are jealous and your youth coaches monitor your ice time to make sure you don't play any more than your share, and they yell at you to "pass the puck" every time you have it.

Look at where Minnesota's NHL players are from. Hedican, Pitlick, Hendrickson, Langenbrunner, Housley, etc.... They are from places that fielded good teams when they were there, but for the most part those cities have NEVER won a state HS championship.

Why is that?

The White Bear kid is going through a living hell and should have the tier 1 option. Think about that same kid, but stuck in say........ Pine City. You can multiply the hell factor big time. You said it, but don't understand it...

[O-townClown]

[The White Bear kid is going through a living hell

The kid? His dad maybe.

[MrBoDangles]

[The White Bear kid is going through a living hell

The kid? His dad maybe.

The whole family gets affected, but mostly the player.

[O-townClown]

Your holier-than-thou "you don't understand" attitude smacks me as selfish. I've spent countless hours in the past few months for our affiliate and the consistent theme is that I see both sides of all issues.

If the system in Minnesota works for most, yeah. You're right. That also means it doesn't work for all.

Changes to the system have consequences. When I tell you that allowing Tier I will result in a lot of the theoretical Pine City kids not being chosen, the obvious reality is that some people will now be frustrated with two hockey structures: club and community.

When I tell you that municipal rinks aren't going to release ice on favorable terms, can you at least agree there is a possibility of increased costs for hockey?

Regulation is difficult. Regulation in a bifurcated environment even more so.

Picking a small association at random, how will youth hockey look in Little Falls? We used to have a nice little program. B teams at most levels, but they were all very competitive. Then the Swarm formed and our top two kids made it. After a couple years the other kids didn't have as much fun. The parents of the kids that left spent over $10,000 annually getting to tournaments in Ontario and Michigan, all so their kids could watch the 3rd period of most games. Seemed like things were better back in the good ol' days.

You obviously have a problem. I'm sorry my view on this doesn't solve your problem. Am I inconsiderate because I don't also have your problem? Am I stupid because I don't agree with your remedy and am more concerned about a platform that provides good experiences for most?

Minnesota's hockey model is very good. My opinion, shared by many across the country, is that it is the best around. I say that with the benefit of experiencing it as a player, following it closely because I know many families still there, and the knowledge that different regulatory environments are rife with other problems.

I'll come around when I see near certainty that the aggregated adverse consequences of a system predicated on choice is less than those in the state's community-based form.

It's easy to throw out questions with no wrong answer. How many Fire-type programs does Minnesota need to provide a place for all the kids that need a change of scenery?

The funny thing I just realized is that you don't need "Tier I" hockey for many of the people in "bad situations". Maybe they just need Tier II (or AA) club programs. Nobody ever seems to clamor for that. Maybe becuase the unregulated summer season provides that proxy.

[goldy313]

No he doesn't. Hockey will, in almost all certainty, never be more tha a game or a hobby to that kid or any other kid. There are more brain surgeons in the US than NHL players (nearly 12 times the amount, using just Americans in the NHL it goes to almost 40 times) yet the focus of a small but vocal group of parents is the hockey development of an 8 to 12 year old. If it's for college then you're also far far more likely to get an academic scholarship than a hockey one. Greybeard posted 196 Minnesotans are playing D1, I'd wager that equals somewhere around 100 full rides maximum, probably much less.

As for tier 1 improving anyone, it will a very small amount but mostly just be a costlier and more selective alternative to association hockey. It's like country club golf, the top golfers pay more to be able to play there but are no better than the those who play on a municipal course, they just get to say they're members of a country club and that means a heck of a lot more to the adults than the kids. Look no further than the MnJHL, most of their kids are no better than the top third of high school kids, their best teams wouldn't win the high school state title and their worst wouldn't beat many high school teams yet bestowing on them the title junior hockey player makes them somehow better? It doesn't, it's just a label. For AAA hockey to work here there somehow has top be a way around the country club/junior hockey player label that the Fire became.

As OTC suggests, until someone comes up with a viable alternative there is no need for MN Hockey to go towards AAA. The perceived development or lack there of of 8-12 year olds isn't going to be the impetus to make that happen.

[MrBoDangles]

Your holier-than-thou "you don't understand" attitude smacks me as selfish. I've spent countless hours in the past few months for our affiliate and the consistent theme is that I see both sides of all issues.

If the system in Minnesota works for most, yeah. You're right. That also means it doesn't work for all.

Changes to the system have consequences. When I tell you that allowing Tier I will result in a lot of the theoretical Pine City kids not being chosen, the obvious reality is that some people will now be frustrated with two hockey structures: club and community.

When I tell you that municipal rinks aren't going to release ice on favorable terms, can you at least agree there is a possibility of increased costs for hockey?

Regulation is difficult. Regulation in a bifurcated environment even more so.

Picking a small association at random, how will youth hockey look in Little Falls? We used to have a nice little program. B teams at most levels, but they were all very competitive. Then the Swarm formed and our top two kids made it. After a couple years the other kids didn't have as much fun. The parents of the kids that left spent over $10,000 annually getting to tournaments in Ontario and Michigan, all so their kids could watch the 3rd period of most games. Seemed like things were better back in the good ol' days.

You obviously have a problem. I'm sorry my view on this doesn't solve your problem. Am I inconsiderate because I don't also have your problem? Am I stupid because I don't agree with your remedy and am more concerned about a platform that provides good experiences for most?

Minnesota's hockey model is very good. My opinion, shared by many across the country, is that it is the best around. I say that with the benefit of experiencing it as a player, following it closely because I know many families still there, and the knowledge that different regulatory environments are rife with other problems.

I'll come around when I see near certainty that the aggregated adverse consequences of a system predicated on choice is less than those in the state's community-based form.

It's easy to throw out questions with no wrong answer. How many Fire-type programs does Minnesota need to provide a place for all the kids that need a change of scenery?

The funny thing I just realized is that you don't need "Tier I" hockey for many of the people in "bad situations". Maybe they just need Tier II (or AA) club programs. Nobody ever seems to clamor for that. Maybe becuase the unregulated summer season provides that proxy.

I'm voicing my opinion. For doing so I'm the Anti- Clown? Get off your high horse.
Just like kids are not limited to Winter residence gymnastics etc. Those same kids should not be held back for Hockey...... It comes down to people not wanting to lose their power or positions.
This is a third world type governing body and there seems to be a lot of brain washed followers.

[5thgraders]

You give the clown too much credit he doesn't have a horse it's a Donkey

[MrBoDangles]

You give the clown too much credit he doesn't have a horse it's a Donkey

A Donkey is too light, he would float away on it.....

[JSR]

No he doesn't. Hockey will, in almost all certainty, never be more tha a game or a hobby to that kid or any other kid. There are more brain surgeons in the US than NHL players (nearly 12 times the amount, using just Americans in the NHL it goes to almost 40 times) yet the focus of a small but vocal group of parents is the hockey development of an 8 to 12 year old. If it's for college then you're also far far more likely to get an academic scholarship than a hockey one. Greybeard posted 196 Minnesotans are playing D1, I'd wager that equals somewhere around 100 full rides maximum, probably much less.

As for tier 1 improving anyone, it will a very small amount but mostly just be a costlier and more selective alternative to association hockey. It's like country club golf, the top golfers pay more to be able to play there but are no better than the those who play on a municipal course, they just get to say they're members of a country club and that means a heck of a lot more to the adults than the kids. Look no further than the MnJHL, most of their kids are no better than the top third of high school kids, their best teams wouldn't win the high school state title and their worst wouldn't beat many high school teams yet bestowing on them the title junior hockey player makes them somehow better? It doesn't, it's just a label. For AAA hockey to work here there somehow has top be a way around the country club/junior hockey player label that the Fire became.

As OTC suggests, until someone comes up with a viable alternative there is no need for MN Hockey to go towards AAA. The perceived development or lack there of of 8-12 year olds isn't going to be the impetus to make that happen.

I agree with almost everything you've said except for the top MnJHL teams not being able to wint eh state high school tourney. Yeah, the top MnJHL team would cake walk to that title. In most scenarios the top MnJHL team has all-state kids on the bottom of their roster. You stretched your analogy too far on that one, otherwise I do agree with the point you were trying to make.

[MrBoDangles]

No he doesn't. Hockey will, in almost all certainty, never be more tha a game or a hobby to that kid or any other kid. There are more brain surgeons in the US than NHL players (nearly 12 times the amount, using just Americans in the NHL it goes to almost 40 times) yet the focus of a small but vocal group of parents is the hockey development of an 8 to 12 year old. If it's for college then you're also far far more likely to get an academic scholarship than a hockey one. Greybeard posted 196 Minnesotans are playing D1, I'd wager that equals somewhere around 100 full rides maximum, probably much less.

As for tier 1 improving anyone, it will a very small amount but mostly just be a costlier and more selective alternative to association hockey. It's like country club golf, the top golfers pay more to be able to play there but are no better than the those who play on a municipal course, they just get to say they're members of a country club and that means a heck of a lot more to the adults than the kids. Look no further than the MnJHL, most of their kids are no better than the top third of high school kids, their best teams wouldn't win the high school state title and their worst wouldn't beat many high school teams yet bestowing on them the title junior hockey player makes them somehow better? It doesn't, it's just a label. For AAA hockey to work here there somehow has top be a way around the country club/junior hockey player label that the Fire became.

As OTC suggests, until someone comes up with a viable alternative there is no need for MN Hockey to go towards AAA. The perceived development or lack there of of 8-12 year olds isn't going to be the impetus to make that happen.

It's obvious you know nothing about tier 1 hockey. Even a Minnetonka (just an example) parent will 9 times out of 10 say the training is better in AAA SUMMER Hockey. Now compare the training betwwen TIER 1 and struggle to find coaches small time Hockey.

Fact is, is that most want to keep others down.

It's easy..... just open it up like the rest of FREE America.

Has anyone else noticed the the explosion of MN NHL draft picks in corellation to the explosion in MN AAA Summer Hockey???????