Are Minnesota kids improving?

[observer]

Minnesota players are improving a lot and fast.

4-5 years ago I would attend an association tryout and the few kids that skated during the summer would shine. Wonder why? Recently, at the same association tryout, all the kids that made the A team skated on a AAA team in the summer. A huge jump. There were 4-5-6 AAA clubs and now there are 20-30 at some levels. So many more kids are skating in the summer than just 4-5 years ago.

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

Minnesota players are improving a lot and fast.

Correct. Certainly last 2 NHL drafts support that. I suspect when the '95 birth year kids graduate, they will raise the bar once again for Minnesota Hockey. The '99 birth year will re-raise the bar and the 2003 birth year will set a new standard of excellence. etc. etc.

What's happeing with Hockey in Minnesota from April 1 - October 1 deserves the Lions share of credit for these rapid advancements. What we need to do now is get hockey in Minnesota from October 1 - April 1 caught up to speed, then we will really have something.

[StillAnEagle]

Minnesota players are improving a lot and fast.

Correct. Certainly last 2 NHL drafts support that. I suspect when the '95 birth year kids graduate, they will raise the bar once again for Minnesota Hockey. The '99 birth year will re-raise the bar and the 2003 birth year will set a new standard of excellence. etc. etc.

What's happeing with Hockey in Minnesota from April 1 - October 1 deserves the Lions share of credit for these rapid advancements. What we need to do now is get hockey in Minnesota from October 1 - April 1 caught up to speed, then we will really have something.

All they're doing is continuing to play hockey during the off season. And do you really, I mean really, think OCT to APR hockey is that far behind????

[InigoMontoya]

I mean really

Yes. Depending on where you live, you'd better go watch youth hockey this year, because in 5 years there will be fewer associations in the state. Many will consolidate, some will just fade away.

[StillAnEagle]

I mean really

Yes. Depending on where you live, you'd better go watch youth hockey this year, because in 5 years there will be fewer associations in the state. Many will consolidate, some will just fade away.

I don't mean to be confrontational or negative, but that has NOTHING to do with the MN hockey model. The main reason associations are disappearing is hockey is way too expensive!

[old goalie85]

Kids today much better than we were in the 80's. My sons high school coach [at Forest Lake] is the son of my high school coach at F.L. in 85. We stood[my former coach and I] watching the squirt and pee-wee S.T.P. this summer and talked about the same points. My former coach[ who coached high school hockey for 25yrs, and played at the U] said over,and over these kids are getting to be very good at younger ages. Thats what we all want as parents right? The extra ice in the summer is sure to help, be it S.T.P. ,3X3, Camps, speed clinics, AAA,AA,A or whatever people want to call "summer hockey" more of us played so we know a little bit more than our dads, [My dad was from Lacross, Wi couldn't skate] or maybe a BIG combo of all of the above, thats my guess.

[greybeard58]

Another consideration is the availability of indoor ice now as there are more rinks and a large number are staying open later and during the summer.
Being the NHL Draft numbers were mentioned for 2 years below are the numbers from 2000-2010. Shows how many American players drafted that year and the top 4 states plus ties and the total at the bottom. You will see that there was not an upsurge of Mn players the past 2 years from earlier years. Minn. has shown consistently strong numbers while others have had highs and lows.

NHL Draft 2000-2010
2000- 54 American players drafted
Minn.- 12, Mich.-8,New York-6,Mass.-5

2001-41 American players drafted
Minn.-11,Mass.-4, New York-4, Mi.,Ca.ND-3

2002 - 60 American players drafted
Mass.-14, Minn.-9,Mich.-9,New York-4

2003-56 American players drafted
Minn.-12,Mass.-9,New York-8, Mich.-4

2004-64 American players drafted
Minn.16,Mass.-8, New York&Mich.-8, ILL.-6

2005-60 American players drafted
Minn.-17,Mass.,New York,Mich.- 6 each

2006-61 American players drafted
Minn.-15,New York-10,Mass.-9,Mich.-8

2007-60 American players drafted
Minn.&Mich,-15 each,Conn.-6,New York-5

2008-41 American players drafted
Minn.-11,Mich.-5,Mass.-4,Cal-3

2009-56 American players drafted
Minn.-15,New York-9,Mass.-6, Cal&Conn.-3 each

2010-57 American players drafted
Minn.-17,Mich.-10,Mass.-7,New York-4

2000-2010 total 613 American players drafted
Minn.- 150,Mich.-77,Mass.-75,New York-67,Cal.-30,ILL-28

[O-townClown]

Kids today much better than we were in the 80's. My sons high school coach [at Forest Lake] is the son of my high school coach at F.L. in 85. We stood[my former coach and I] watching the squirt and pee-wee S.T.P. this summer and talked about the same points. My former coach[ who coached high school hockey for 25yrs, and played at the U] said over,and over these kids are getting to be very good at younger ages. Thats what we all want as parents right? The extra ice in the summer is sure to help, be it S.T.P. ,3X3, Camps, speed clinics, AAA,AA,A or whatever people want to call "summer hockey" more of us played so we know a little bit more than our dads, [My dad was from Lacross, Wi couldn't skate] or maybe a BIG combo of all of the above, thats my guess.

There's no question. But how much of this is merely accelerating the race to someone's peak? You see it a lot in golf, tennis, and other individual sports where younger players can compete with adults. It doesn't happen in team sports usually, mainly because there is contact involved.

For example, Aree Song Wongluekiet finished in the Top 10 of an LPGA Major at age 13. (Michelle Wie did the same the following year.) She's only about 23 now and I don't think you can find her on any page of a leaderboard if you look back two years. Yes, I know girls/women are different.

Anyway, back to youth hockey. The ADM and its LTAD theory, which you are free to disagree with, is that racing to hit this peak does not do anything to raise the peak.

Food for thought.

FWIW, my kid is light years beyond me and I was really good as a prepubescent! I usually figure today's kids are about 2 years ahead of where their parents were at the same age. Sports, school, etc... It levels out though.

[goldy313]

There has been a explosion of Minnesota NHL draft picks along the same time line as an explosion of AAA Summer Hockey. Has AAA Summer Hockey been the major change?

If so, is change terrible?

Let's start with expansion, since 1991 the NHL has added 9 teams or roughly expanded by 1/3 I think that has a lot to do with it.

Also the the mighty ducks program allowed many communities to add ice and many of those sheets became year around ice, that's probably the single biggest factor. Most of the kids drafted the last 5+ years or so have always had available ice all year, a drastic change from years prior when most kids ice time was November to March with maybe a week or two at summer camp. Year around ice allowed summer AAA hockey but it was the building of the rinks through state funding and local groups that allowed summer AAA teams not the reverse.

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

There's no question. But how much of this is merely accelerating the race to someone's peak? The ADM and its LTAD theory, which you are free to disagree with, is that racing to hit this peak does not do anything to raise the peak.

Food for thought.

Good points and worth keping an eye on. The '95 group sould be first to test the waters and gets progressively stronger with each age group from there, in terms of quantity of Minnesota kids exposed to this year round training ... these kids (training year rund) have certainly raised the bar in terms of winter youth hockey ... it will be interesting to see if it carries on into junior and beyond ...

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

Another consideration is the availability of indoor ice now as there are more rinks and a large number are staying open later and during the summer.

Here's another reason ...

It may be impossible to pin down a sole reason for the increase of Minnesotans hearing their name called at the NHL Draft, but as a whole American hockey has seen much more prosperity in recent years. The success of USA Hockey’s National Team Development Program has played a major role in the development of NHL-caliber American hockey players, as has the increase in opportunities for year-round, high-level hockey that have become available across the nation.
http://www.letsplayhockey.com/1013kurtt.html

[goldy313]

"are MN kids improving?" Take a look at a HS hockey video from the early 80's and compare it to last years kids. The kids from today would destroy the kids from the 80's. Heck maybe even the North Stars back then too...

I don't buy that argument because it's an apples and oranges argument. The game is different now played under different rules with different equipment. (look at the size of a goalies pads 25 years ago vs. todays) If you put today's kids back in the '80's under the rules then or earlier they'd get killed and visa versa. The individual talent level has risen dramatically but the team game isn't as good; today's players don't move the puck as well and really don't have very good ice presence without the puck. Where that leaves you in terms of who is better is an apples and oranges argument.

[StillAnEagle]

"are MN kids improving?" Take a look at a HS hockey video from the early 80's and compare it to last years kids. The kids from today would destroy the kids from the 80's. Heck maybe even the North Stars back then too...

I don't buy that argument because it's an apples and oranges argument. The game is different now played under different rules with different equipment. (look at the size of a goalies pads 25 years ago vs. todays) If you put today's kids back in the '80's under the rules then or earlier they'd get killed and visa versa. The individual talent level has risen dramatically but the team game isn't as good; today's players don't move the puck as well and really don't have very good ice presence without the puck. Where that leaves you in terms of who is better is an apples and oranges argument.

Disagree - respectfully. The game isn't that much different. If so, describe. Goalie pads haven't done anything to cut down on the amount of goals scored from what I can tell. And I've seen better team passing today than ever before. Have you seen an Eden Prairie or a Hill Murray team play lately? Their break outs and neutral zone transitions are much more crisp than even 15 years ago.

[goldy313]

*Blue line icing to red line icing dramatically changed the game in 1986. Dump and chase became obsolete for the most part although it took 10+ years for coaches to adapt. Defensemen were forced to hold the offensive zone blueline where as now they can back up easier making the forcheck very important. The blueline was a hard blue line (like it is for offsides) where as the redline is soft. Neutral zone play wasn't as important but the offensive and defensive zones were more important and defending the bluelines a key as I'll point out again.
*there was limit on length of sticks and all sticks were wood limiting the size of players
*officiating was much tighter
*tag up offsides is now allowed, before you could throw the puck in but couldn't follow it on a delayed offsides making defending the bluelines very important
*goalie pads are larger and made of non absorbant material

I officiated high school hockey from 1984-2005 and those are just my observations over the years. It's just my opinion and I wholeheartedly believe the change in icing moved the game from a team focused game to an individual focused game. From a "play" to a system. It's neither a positive or a negative just a difference. I do see how EP and Hill move the puck but don't see it as good or as quick as Burnsville or Hill or Edina or JM did 30 years ago.

FWIW it's like comparing the NFL in the '70's when recievers could be hit until the ball was thrown and open hand blocking was illegal to the more offensive friendly game of today. Not better or worse just different.

[MrBoDangles]

There has been a explosion of Minnesota NHL draft picks along the same time line as an explosion of AAA Summer Hockey. Has AAA Summer Hockey been the major change?

If so, is change terrible?

Let's start with expansion, since 1991 the NHL has added 9 teams or roughly expanded by 1/3 I think that has a lot to do with it.

Also the the mighty ducks program allowed many communities to add ice and many of those sheets became year around ice, that's probably the single biggest factor. Most of the kids drafted the last 5+ years or so have always had available ice all year, a drastic change from years prior when most kids ice time was November to March with maybe a week or two at summer camp. Year around ice allowed summer AAA hockey but it was the building of the rinks through state funding and local groups that allowed summer AAA teams not the reverse.

Another one to prove the point......

Yes, kids are skating year round now.

Rinks would still be empty in the Summer without the explosion of AAA the last 5- 10 years. Demand for open rinks or rinks demanding AAA? There were always rinks around, just no demand to keep open in the Summer.

So you're saying, RECENTLY, kids have been able to skate year round and are now able to compete with tier 1 kids from across the country?...... and are now getting drafted more?

You are correct! AAA has made the difference.

[MrBoDangles]

There has been a explosion of Minnesota NHL draft picks along the same time line as an explosion of AAA Summer Hockey. Has AAA Summer Hockey been the major change?

If so, is change terrible?

Let's start with expansion, since 1991 the NHL has added 9 teams or roughly expanded by 1/3 I think that has a lot to do with it.

Also the the mighty ducks program allowed many communities to add ice and many of those sheets became year around ice, that's probably the single biggest factor. Most of the kids drafted the last 5+ years or so have always had available ice all year, a drastic change from years prior when most kids ice time was November to March with maybe a week or two at summer camp. Year around ice allowed summer AAA hockey but it was the building of the rinks through state funding and local groups that allowed summer AAA teams not the reverse.

1/3 of zero is still ZERO from back in the day.

Try doing some recent figures on numbers drafted.

[MrBoDangles]

There has been a explosion of Minnesota NHL draft picks along the same time line as an explosion of AAA Summer Hockey. Has AAA Summer Hockey been the major change?

If so, is change terrible?

Let's start with expansion, since 1991 the NHL has added 9 teams or roughly expanded by 1/3 I think that has a lot to do with it.

Also the the mighty ducks program allowed many communities to add ice and many of those sheets became year around ice, that's probably the single biggest factor. Most of the kids drafted the last 5+ years or so have always had available ice all year, a drastic change from years prior when most kids ice time was November to March with maybe a week or two at summer camp. Year around ice allowed summer AAA hockey but it was the building of the rinks through state funding and local groups that allowed summer AAA teams not the reverse.

1/3 of zero is still ZERO from back in the day. or 2/3's of zero

Try doing some recent figures on numbers drafted.

Minnesota First Rounders

1982- 1999 6 first rounders

2000- 2010 18 first rounders............Fourteen (14) of those since 2005!

All hail the Mighty Ducks Program.....

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

Minnesota First Rounders

1982- 1999 6 first rounders

2000- 2010 18 first rounders............Fourteen (14) of those since 2005!

All hail the Mighty Ducks Program.....

And a record tying 4 this year ... tied with the year Bernies 88's first hit the draft

[longrebound]

Minnesota First Rounders

1982- 1999 6 first rounders

2000- 2010 18 first rounders............Fourteen (14) of those since 2005!

All hail the Mighty Ducks Program.....

And a record tying 4 this year ... tied with the year Bernies 88's first hit the draft

Also tied with the '87s when Brian Lee, TJ Oshie, Matt Niskanen, and Joe Finley went in the first round. Only Finley has yet to play in the NHL and, by the way, was the only one to play AAA hockey. He is a Blades alumnus. Oshie and Lee did their summer STPs and went to Chuck Grillo's camp. Not sure about Niskanen beyond STP. Just saying ...

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

Except that TJ Oshie is neither an '87 or a Minnesotan.

Oshie was born in 1986 in Washington State and played his first 10 years of hockey all the way through bantams in Everett, Washington, playing mostly in Canadian Leagues.

He spent only 3 years playing hockey in Minnesota, moving from Washington to attend Warroad High School (his uncle is from Warroad). He won the State Championship (triple OT I believe) as a senior and then moved on again to spend 3 years in North Dakota before moving on to St. Louis.

[longrebound]

Except that TJ Oshie is neither an '87 or a Minnesotan.

Oshie was born in 1986 in Washington State and played his first 10 years of hockey all the way through bantams in Everett, Washington, playing mostly in Canadian Leagues.

He spent only 3 years playing hockey in Minnesota, moving from Washington to attend Warroad High School (his uncle is from Warroad). He won the State Championship (triple OT I believe) as a senior and then moved on again to spend 3 years in North Dakota before moving on to St. Louis.

Yeah, I knew all that.

I just wanted you to make the point that, out of all his choices, he opted to develop by playing high school hockey in Minnesota. Thanks.

[MrBoDangles]

I believe the explosion of summer AAA hockey has been very recent and these kids are not draft age yet so the explosion of NHL draft would be due to association hockey and perhaps other factors.

While I agree that summer AAA hockey has really exploded big time over the past 5 years, it really started to take off about 10 years ago....so there could be a correlation between the number of Minnesotans being drafted with the expansion of off-season opportunities to develop for the top players. It's probably not the sole factor, but I think it could've played a part....along with the creation of the Shattuck-St Mary's hockey program and other things.

Many, if not all, of the Minnesota boys drafted over the past couple of seasons did play for the top summer AAA teams: Blades, Icemen, Predators, Lightning, etc. to some degree.

Seems to be the same scenario looking back even further than 2 years.... unless they were from far northern MN.

There have been a few from northern Minnesota........ I think the other two are from Moorhead? and Grand Rapids?

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

Except that TJ Oshie is neither an '87 or a Minnesotan.

Oshie was born in 1986 in Washington State and played his first 10 years of hockey all the way through bantams in Everett, Washington, playing mostly in Canadian Leagues.

He spent only 3 years playing hockey in Minnesota, moving from Washington to attend Warroad High School (his uncle is from Warroad). He won the State Championship (triple OT I believe) as a senior and then moved on again to spend 3 years in North Dakota before moving on to St. Louis.

Yeah, I knew all that.

I just wanted you to make the point that, out of all his choices, he opted to develop by playing high school hockey in Minnesota. Thanks.

??? he chose to play high school in Warroad where his uncle lived instead of continuing on in the Seattle Junior Hockey Association ... ok ... who wouldn't? Warroad is a great place to play hockey ... Seattle is a great place to drink coffee ... you probably didn't need any help making that point ...

[tonyleepers]

Except that TJ Oshie is neither an '87 or a Minnesotan.

Oshie was born in 1986 in Washington State and played his first 10 years of hockey all the way through bantams in Everett, Washington, playing mostly in Canadian Leagues.

He spent only 3 years playing hockey in Minnesota, moving from Washington to attend Warroad High School (his uncle is from Warroad). He won the State Championship (triple OT I believe) as a senior and then moved on again to spend 3 years in North Dakota before moving on to St. Louis.

Yeah, I knew all that.

I just wanted you to make the point that, out of all his choices, he opted to develop by playing high school hockey in Minnesota. Thanks.

??? he chose to play high school in Warroad where his uncle lived instead of continuing on in the Seattle Junior Hockey Association ... ok ... who wouldn't? Warroad is a great place to play hockey ... Seattle is a great place to drink coffee ... you probably didn't need any help making that point ...

The point is: he did choose to play Minnesota winter hockey!!! There were other great options he could have chose. But he chose Minnesota hockey. Now you say it is only obvious because Seattle hockey isnt up to par. You also say Minnesota winter hockey isn't up to par with other options. So why did he choose Minnesota? And not something else? By the way, Seattle is also a great place to sell umbrellas!! Great coffee comeback!!

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

Yeah, I knew all that.

I just wanted you to make the point that, out of all his choices, he opted to develop by playing high school hockey in Minnesota. Thanks.

??? he chose to play high school in Warroad where his uncle lived instead of continuing on in the Seattle Junior Hockey Association ... ok ... who wouldn't? Warroad is a great place to play hockey ... Seattle is a great place to drink coffee ... you probably didn't need any help making that point ...

The point is: he did choose to play Minnesota winter hockey!!! There were other great options he could have chose. But he chose Minnesota hockey. Now you say it is only obvious because Seattle hockey isnt up to par.

I didn't say that. Oshie said it. I've never played hockey in Seattle.

What I said was "Warroad is a great place to play hockey"