Wisconsin Fire

[observer]

OK guys, get to work. If this is something that is important to you then invest some time to make everything better for all of us. You asked "MN Hockey" again to comment on something. MN Hockey is a structure for the membership to propose areas of improvement. They have meetings and committees and are waiting for your participation. It's all member driven. Don't wait for MN Hockey, they're waiting for you and your proposal. Be part of the process.

It's the old, put up or shut up. Put together a proposal, get on the agenda at the next meeting and present. Otherwise, zip it.

[Quasar]

I like the Blake and Breck Idea .. I also like the Skinner Academy idea

Or why not talk Minnesota Hockey into figuring this out for their members.

Oh.. and I believe that D1 could field just as good a team as D6.

It's kinda weird that people don't think Edina is in Minneapolis..

Gotta get out of those boxes.........

[observer]

Or why not talk Minnesota Hockey into figuring this out for their members.

OK, Quasar, kinda done with you. Again, MN Hockey doesn't figure out anything. You figure it out and present to them.

And, you need a geography lesson too. Edina is a city. Minneapolis is a city. Edina is not in Minneapolis.

[Quasar]

Or why not talk Minnesota Hockey into figuring this out for their members.

OK, Quasar, kinda done with you. Again, MN Hockey doesn't figure out anything. You figure it out and present to them.

And, you need a geography lesson too. Edina is a city. Minneapolis is a city. Edina is not in Minneapolis.

Well my brainy friend You can be done with anyone one you like..

It's the old Screw you attitude...

And .... as an inner city kid who grew up in Mpls. I never thought I was in another city when I was in Hopkins, St Louis park, Edina, Minnetonka, or even St.Paul for that matter.

How about something positive ????

[Quasar]

Or why not talk Minnesota Hockey into figuring this out for their members.

OK, Quasar, kinda done with you. Again, MN Hockey doesn't figure out anything. You figure it out and present to them.

Oh wait ..I get it !!

Its like I'm on the board,, Tell me your ideas .. So I can say yea or nay !!

So like do you actually have any ideas??

I didn't think so............

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

I am of the belief that if we are really trying to do tier 1 youth hockey that we (MN) will field 2 or maybe 3 real tier 1 teams (similar to summer).

I have to agree here and this may be the biggest obstacle. The reality is there just isn't enough talent in Minnesota at any age group to ice 13 Tier 1 calibre teams. If we chose to ice 13 Tier teams (1 per district) we wouldn't compete well with existing Tier 1 organizations. For the most part we'd be putting out Tier 2 caliber teams if we put out 1 per district. Of course there would always be an exception and a district could be exceptionally deep at a certain age group, but consistently we couldn't field 13 Tier 1 caliber teams.

A good start for Tier 1 in Minnesota is likely 2-3 teams on a trial basis in the Metro area starting at Pee Wee minor. Watch it for a couple of years and make adjustments from there.

[royals dad]

OK, Quasar, kinda done with you. Again, MN Hockey doesn't figure out anything. You figure it out and present to them.

And, you need a geography lesson too. Edina is a city. Minneapolis is a city. Edina is not in Minneapolis.

Well my brainy friend You can be done with anyone one you like..

It's the old Screw you attitude...

And .... as an inner city kid who grew up in Mpls. I never thought I was in another city when I was in Hopkins, St Louis park, Edina, Minnetonka, or even St.Paul for that matter.
How about something positive ????

I thought you brought up the district idea? I left EP as a coach in 87 and volunteered in D1 as a coach for about 15 years. If you think a d1 all star team could keep up with a D6/Tonka, Edina, EP, B-ville, Bloomington,... all Star team your wrong. Only a couple districts could have a quality team and some may have big logistical issues. What if the best 3 goalies in the state one year are from edina, ep, and tonka? Do they get to waiver out or do you create a "living hell" for them by forcing them to the associations A team well lesser players make a tier 1 team from another district?

[yeti]

I think what some are trying to do is in line with USA hockeys ADM (american devolopment model) program. They state that there will be regional HPC (high performance clubs) developed and would compete against others in the region to cut down on travel. Why would'nt you just take the top three summer programs and make them the HPC clubs for the state? Im not talking about the same roster but the club names. The problem is you almost need tryouts to be judged by a third party to keep politics away from the game.

[Quasar]

Well my brainy friend You can be done with anyone one you like..

It's the old Screw you attitude...

And .... as an inner city kid who grew up in Mpls. I never thought I was in another city when I was in Hopkins, St Louis park, Edina, Minnetonka, or even St.Paul for that matter.
How about something positive ????

I thought you brought up the district idea? I left EP as a coach in 87 and volunteered in D1 as a coach for about 15 years. If you think a d1 all star team could keep up with a D6/Tonka, Edina, EP, B-ville, Bloomington,... all Star team your wrong. Only a couple districts could have a quality team and some may have big logistical issues. What if the best 3 goalies in the state one year are from edina, ep, and tonka? Do they get to waiver out or do you create a "living hell" for them by forcing them to the associations A team well lesser players make a tier 1 team from another district?

Sorry everyone ..Just trying to make a point..

Minnesota hockey has made all these barriers.

If you want to pretend that you need a passport to visit your uncle in Edina, that's ok with me.

In my heart of hearts I know that there are not enough kids in D1 to make this happen, unless someone that matters starts thinking out side the box..

The Twin Cities Metro is what it is... It makes me sad that some people don't understand that they are part of the greater Metro area.

I think that The Twin Cities Metro could field a number of Tier 1 teams..

Perhaps the District model is flawed... Just a thought

[Quasar]

I think what some are trying to do is in line with USA hockeys ADM (american devolopment model) program. They state that there will be regional HPC (high performance clubs) developed and would compete against others in the region to cut down on travel. Why would'nt you just take the top three summer programs and make them the HPC clubs for the state? Im not talking about the same roster but the club names. The problem is you almost need tryouts to be judged by a third party to keep politics away from the game.

This is good

Does anyone know whats going on with HPC in Minnesota??

I just was looking at the USHL, an NAHL web sites.. They have a ton of Minnesota kids.

They have placed a ton of Minnesota kids on college teams all over the country

How is it then, that we can only support 3 Tier 1 teams in Minnesota youth hockey??

Were did all these kids come from ???

Did they play high school hockey, or did they go right to Jr A??

I'm pretty sure they played youth hockey in Minnesota..

There are way too many for them to have all come from a couple of districts

Can anyone answer this for me??

[O-townClown]

Can anyone answer this for me??

The big challenge is geographical. Even though you are in hockey country (Minnesota) and I'm from a non-traditional hockey area (Southeast), it still is the same riddle.

The SW suburbs of Minneapolis can easily support a Tier I program. Ditto up around Blaine and surely somewhere on the St. Paul side. So that's three, maybe four legit, compete on a national level (i.e. Top 20ish) programs.

The rest of the state? I asked about the Pine City kid and was given a "blueprint" where Fargo, Duluth, and Rochester are also home to teams. So draw a one-hour ring around those areas and you'll see who you can possibly get to a weeknight practice. If that's not enough to support a real good team you are now needing to practice on weekends in order to draw kids in the second-hour radius.

By forming these six teams you haven't addressed things for the really good players that aren't within those zones. You can't get everyone.

Minnesota has a plethora of kids that have developed in the association system from all areas. Do you really need anyone to answer that question? You could form Tier I and kids will still develop outside of that. Enough kids play in Minnesota that they'll always turn out plenty of USHL, college, and NHL Draft players.

[SECoach]

HPC teams would not be at the pee wee level or below. The ADM advocates specialization to be age appropriate. This is not a guess or a gut feelings some guy had but is backed up by solid, worldwide research by people that have dedicated their lives to improving youth sports and the game of hockey.

I personally have no problem with HPC and Tier 1 if it's age appropriate. I'd love nothing more than to keep kids home and provide them with opportunities to specialize and excel. From what I have witnessed and observed, most of the demands for opportunities for "elite" players come from the parents of very young children.

This is where the other districts around the country have found they have made mistakes. Determining which players are elite at too young an age and finding out the rest of the kids stop playing, and some of them would have been the truly elite players.

We have to be very careful. Open the door for one level and the next level cries foul. Tier 1 mites and squirts has been proven to be bad for the state of youth hockey. Research has shown its a bad idea at pee wee as well.

You can read all about ADM at www.admkids.com. Get involved with your local association, encourage them to impliment the principles of the ADM. If they are unable or unwilling there are resources available to them at the district, state, and national levels.

[Quasar]

Can anyone answer this for me??

The big challenge is geographical. Even though you are in hockey country (Minnesota) and I'm from a non-traditional hockey area (Southeast), it still is the same riddle.

The SW suburbs of Minneapolis can easily support a Tier I program. Ditto up around Blaine and surely somewhere on the St. Paul side. So that's three, maybe four legit, compete on a national level (i.e. Top 20ish) programs.

The rest of the state? I asked about the Pine City kid and was given a "blueprint" where Fargo, Duluth, and Rochester are also home to teams. So draw a one-hour ring around those areas and you'll see who you can possibly get to a weeknight practice. If that's not enough to support a real good team you are now needing to practice on weekends in order to draw kids in the second-hour radius.

By forming these six teams you haven't addressed things for the really good players that aren't within those zones. You can't get everyone.

Minnesota has a plethora of kids that have developed in the association system from all areas. Do you really need anyone to answer that question? You could form Tier I and kids will still develop outside of that. Enough kids play in Minnesota that they'll always turn out plenty of USHL, college, and NHL Draft players.

I see what your saying, and could easily agree with what you have posted.

However ... I think if you were to offer a tier 1 program in those cities, you would find the tryouts filled up.. whether or not you could field competitive teams ???

I guess the only way you can determine that is to hold the tryouts..

Sorry about the snarky comment about the interstate system..

Too late..Too much coffee

[Quasar]

HPC teams would not be at the pee wee level or below. The ADM advocates specialization to be age appropriate. This is not a guess or a gut feelings some guy had but is backed up by solid, worldwide research by people that have dedicated their lives to improving youth sports and the game of hockey.

I personally have no problem with HPC and Tier 1 if it's age appropriate. I'd love nothing more than to keep kids home and provide them with opportunities to specialize and excel. From what I have witnessed and observed, most of the demands for opportunities for "elite" players come from the parents of very young children.

This is where the other districts around the country have found they have made mistakes. Determining which players are elite at too young an age and finding out the rest of the kids stop playing, and some of them would have been the truly elite players.

We have to be very careful. Open the door for one level and the next level cries foul. Tier 1 mites and squirts has been proven to be bad for the state of youth hockey. Research has shown its a bad idea at pee wee as well.

You can read all about ADM at www.admkids.com. Get involved with your local association, encourage them to impliment the principles of the ADM. If they are unable or unwilling there are resources available to them at the district, state, and national levels.

I'm on board with the HPC concept... would like to see something at the Peewee major level.

[longrebound]

I think what some are trying to do is in line with USA hockeys ADM (american devolopment model) program. They state that there will be regional HPC (high performance clubs) developed and would compete against others in the region to cut down on travel. Why would'nt you just take the top three summer programs and make them the HPC clubs for the state? Im not talking about the same roster but the club names. The problem is you almost need tryouts to be judged by a third party to keep politics away from the game.

This is good

Does anyone know whats going on with HPC in Minnesota??

I just was looking at the USHL, an NAHL web sites.. They have a ton of Minnesota kids.

They have placed a ton of Minnesota kids on college teams all over the country

How is it then, that we can only support 3 Tier 1 teams in Minnesota youth hockey??

Were did all these kids come from ???

Did they play high school hockey, or did they go right to Jr A??

I'm pretty sure they played youth hockey in Minnesota..

There are way too many for them to have all come from a couple of districts

Can anyone answer this for me??

HPC has been delayed for several years in all the affiliates. I was told that the AAA organizations are fighting it because it threatens their relevance at the Bantam and Midget levels.

The one thing that Minnesota Hockey has to overcome is how to create HPCs outside the metro. I know it is easy to geographically implement it in the metro but if you put one for the NW part of the state in Moorhead, these are the distances players will travel for practice:

Detroit Lakes (43 miles)
Fergus Falls (55 miles)
East Grand Forks (80 miles)
Bemidji (140 miles)
Thief River Falls (110 miles)
Roseau (198 miles)
Warroad (220 miles)

Brainerd, Alexandria, Willmar, and more are all over 100 miles too. Crookston is a little less. How do you logistically make it happen? And, more importantly, if they can't figure out the logistics, how to they sell HPC as the best way to develop, then insist that out-state players drive three hours each way for that development?

It is a little better in the Northeast, but do we really expect Grand Rapids kids to travel to Duluth three or four times per week for 10 months?

The northern towns mentioned above (along with Cloquet, Virginia, and Little Falls) have combined to develop over 20 NHL draft picks in the last seven years so we can't afford to leave them behind, can we? How do we make it happen?

[Quasar]

[

quote="longrebound"]

This is good

Does anyone know whats going on with HPC in Minnesota??

I just was looking at the USHL, an NAHL web sites.. They have a ton of Minnesota kids.

They have placed a ton of Minnesota kids on college teams all over the country

How is it then, that we can only support 3 Tier 1 teams in Minnesota youth hockey??

Were did all these kids come from ???

Did they play high school hockey, or did they go right to Jr A??

I'm pretty sure they played youth hockey in Minnesota..

There are way too many for them to have all come from a couple of districts

Can anyone answer this for me??

HPC has been delayed for several years in all the affiliates. I was told that the AAA organizations are fighting it because it threatens their relevance at the Bantam and Midget levels.

The one thing that Minnesota Hockey has to overcome is how to create HPCs outside the metro. I know it is easy to geographically implement it in the metro but if you put one for the NW part of the state in Moorhead, these are the distances players will travel for practice:

Detroit Lakes (43 miles)
Fergus Falls (55 miles)
East Grand Forks (80 miles)
Bemidji (140 miles)
Thief River Falls (110 miles)
Roseau (198 miles)
Warroad (220 miles)

Brainerd, Alexandria, Willmar, and more are all over 100 miles too. Crookston is a little less. How do you logistically make it happen? And, more importantly, if they can't figure out the logistics, how to they sell HPC as the best way to develop, then insist that out-state players drive three hours each way for that development?

It is a little better in the Northeast, but do we really expect Grand Rapids kids to travel to Duluth three or four times per week for 10 months?

The northern towns mentioned above (along with Cloquet, Virginia, and Little Falls) have combined to develop over 20 NHL draft picks in the last seven years so we can't afford to leave them behind, can we? How do we make it happen?

No we can't ... I wish I knew ..

I don't.. That's why I'm asking

Moorhead was just a city boy's reference...

Some one a lot better knowledge of the area than I would have to figure that out..

Maybe different locations for practices ..

[SECoach]

Are on board with the ADM or just the HPC portion of it? It's a long term plan for long term development. It won't work if only a piece or two is implimented.[/quote]

[longrebound]

I like the Blake and Breck Idea .. I also like the Skinner Academy idea

Or why not talk Minnesota Hockey into figuring this out for their members.

Oh.. and I believe that D1 could field just as good a team as D6.

It's kinda weird that people don't think Edina is in Minneapolis..

Gotta get out of those boxes.........

I don't think D1 could compete with D6 but if Minnesota Hockey were committed to making this happen why couldn't they just shuffle the districts a little to make them more equal? Edina and Jefferson might have to move into D1 -- at least they might make sense from a distance perspective.

If you want to see how the districts stack up right now, go back and check the Advanced 15 tournament in New Hope last April or May. And, check the comments on how the selections were all political -- at least in District 10. Can you imagine what it would be like if those tryouts would have placed kids on a team for an entire year? Somebody would have to iron that out.

[Quasar]

Are on board with the ADM or just the HPC portion of it? It's a long term plan for long term development. It won't work if only a piece or two is implimented.

Both

[Quasar]

I don't think D1 could compete with D6 but if Minnesota Hockey were committed to making this happen why couldn't they just shuffle the districts a little to make them more equal? Edina and Jefferson might have to move into D1 -- at least they might make sense from a distance perspective.

I realize the District thing is really .. really difficult for many reasons...

I just want to make the point that greater Twin Cities metro supports Minnesota Hockey in a BIG way, and assigning the "Metro" logo to all the scrubbinies is insulting to say the least..

Of course ..I was an Inner city kid !!

Edit ...

I don't want this to sound wrong ..what I would like to see is all levels of play proudly sporting the metro logo.

Edit...

Ok guy's have at it I'm done for today ...

[Puckstopper81]

I am of the belief that if we are really trying to do tier 1 youth hockey that we (MN) will field 2 or maybe 3 real tier 1 teams (similar to summer).

I have to agree here and this may be the biggest obstacle. The reality is there just isn't enough talent in Minnesota at any age group to ice 13 Tier 1 calibre teams. If we chose to ice 13 Tier teams (1 per district) we wouldn't compete well with existing Tier 1 organizations. For the most part we'd be putting out Tier 2 caliber teams if we put out 1 per district. Of course there would always be an exception and a district could be exceptionally deep at a certain age group, but consistently we couldn't field 13 Tier 1 caliber teams.

A good start for Tier 1 in Minnesota is likely 2-3 teams on a trial basis in the Metro area starting at Pee Wee minor. Watch it for a couple of years and make adjustments from there.

I really have to disagree with the statement that you couldn't field 13 competitive Tier 1 teams at any age group. Winter Tier 1 is a lot more watered down than what you see in Spring/Summer Tier 1 teams like NikeBauer Selects, Boston Jr. Bruins, or even the Detroit teams. These summer teams are allstars that comprise of kids from all over the country. Winter Tier 1 is not as strong as some of you suggest. At any age group, the top 10 teams are very strong, but after that the teams are very mediocre. For example in the 98 division you have the likes of St. Louis Jr. Blues, Chicago Mission, Detroit Honeybaked, Little Caesars, Florida Everblades, South Shore Kings, Dallas Stars, New Jersey Rockets, and then there is the rest (Sorry if I forgot to mention anyone else). I am pretty confident that Minnesota can produce teams that are very competitive with the rest of the field and give the big guns a run for their money. Don't sell your kid's talent short.

[O-townClown]

NPC, how many out-of-state kids (or their parents) are really clamoring for such a team? I certainly understand when Twin City parents say they'd like to see a Tier I option, but seriously? You think you can get a team of really good players - per birthyear - to jump through all sorts of hoops just to practice in order to go on tour?

Unless there are about six teams in the state these Tier I teams are going to go to other areas where Tier I hockey is played at least some of the time.

There are at least three arguments for why there is a "need" for Tier I hockey in Minnesota:

• Choice - Get me out! Could also be accomplished with Tier II clubs.
  Competition - So the best only play against the best
  Nationals - As if winning the state tournament isn't a big enough deal.

Do I understand this correctly? Am I missing other main reasons?

[DMom]

This is good

Does anyone know whats going on with HPC in Minnesota??

I just was looking at the USHL, an NAHL web sites.. They have a ton of Minnesota kids.

They have placed a ton of Minnesota kids on college teams all over the country

How is it then, that we can only support 3 Tier 1 teams in Minnesota youth hockey??

Were did all these kids come from ???

Did they play high school hockey, or did they go right to Jr A??

I'm pretty sure they played youth hockey in Minnesota..

There are way too many for them to have all come from a couple of districts

Can anyone answer this for me??

HPC has been delayed for several years in all the affiliates. I was told that the AAA organizations are fighting it because it threatens their relevance at the Bantam and Midget levels.

The one thing that Minnesota Hockey has to overcome is how to create HPCs outside the metro. I know it is easy to geographically implement it in the metro but if you put one for the NW part of the state in Moorhead, these are the distances players will travel for practice:

Detroit Lakes (43 miles)
Fergus Falls (55 miles)
East Grand Forks (80 miles)
Bemidji (140 miles)
Thief River Falls (110 miles)
Roseau (198 miles)
Warroad (220 miles)

Brainerd, Alexandria, Willmar, and more are all over 100 miles too. Crookston is a little less. How do you logistically make it happen? And, more importantly, if they can't figure out the logistics, how to they sell HPC as the best way to develop, then insist that out-state players drive three hours each way for that development?

It is a little better in the Northeast, but do we really expect Grand Rapids kids to travel to Duluth three or four times per week for 10 months?

The northern towns mentioned above (along with Cloquet, Virginia, and Little Falls) have combined to develop over 20 NHL draft picks in the last seven years so we can't afford to leave them behind, can we? How do we make it happen?

How about multiple practices per day? Have a Sat practice and do a morning and afternoon. Even toss in a Friday night one? I realize that it is lots of travel and all but, well, we are out of state. We live an hour and 45 min from BLaine. I am not sure that I would want to drive it 3 or 4 times per week but if there were 2 or 3 other kids from up here and we carpooled? Sure. I drive today and take your kid and his kid, next week you drive, then him. I really think that for a shot at getting a kid onto a team that is an HPC type team a parent is going to make the commitment needed. I know that it sounds crazy but if you live in a town like (say for example) Grand Rapids you drive anyhow. Pretty much 2 or 3 times per week. You drive to games now, I bet if you took a look at the total drive time involved it would be pretty much the same, except in stead of driving to different towns you might be driving to the same town. You could then move the practices around some. Have a "north eastern" team (example to try to do a better job of putting this into words) and have your practices in Duluth this week so the Duluth kids stay home, Next week Grand Rapids, Then Moose Lake, Then Silver Bay, Then Deerwood. Spread out the pain of driving, try for max practices in a given town in the middle someplace even if there is not a kid from that town, have multiple practices on a day, that sort of thing. We played a festival format for a weekend when we lived in another state. We played a game Friday night, Sat morning and/or Sat Night then also on Sunday Morning. They would bring in 3 or 4 teams and we played. Not a tourney format, just games within the group for our "league" games. Lots of hockey in a weekend but a 3 or 4 game weekend made it worth the trip. This is even made better by the fact that we are talking about older kids who are easier to send on the road with somebody. PeeWee on up is a pretty safe age for that from the standpoint of home sick and etc.

Just a thought or six all jumbled in here.

I personally quit worrying so much about pedophiles at peewee age but at that point I have to really trust whoever is evaluating head injuries. Neither of my older kids will tell you they have double vision or anything else that will keep them from playing the next game.

Secondly, if so many good players are being formed under the current system, how many more are going to be developed in the backseat of a car.

Thirdly, seriously summer teams? Besides for the Blades none of them have the connections to help a kid land somewhere post high school. I'm not familiar with the northern teams, there are probably guys up there that are helpful but I don't think that the USHL scouts are hitting up the Monopoly or the Edge or the Red Bull for draft leads. Why do you think all of them but the Blades start to fall apart at the minor Bantam level?? At that age kids need more than a summer team, or the name of one, can do for them, IMHO.

[DMom]

I personally quit worrying so much about pedophiles at peewee age but at that point I have to really trust whoever is evaluating head injuries. Neither of my older kids will tell you they have double vision or anything else that will keep them from playing the next game.

Secondly, if so many good players are being formed under the current system, how many more are going to be developed in the backseat of a car.

Thirdly, seriously summer teams? Besides for the Blades none of them have the connections to help a kid land somewhere post high school. I'm not familiar with the northern teams, there are probably guys up there that are helpful but I don't think that the USHL scouts are hitting up the Monopoly or the Edge or the Red Bull for draft leads. Why do you think all of them but the Blades start to fall apart at the minor Bantam level?? At that age kids need more than a summer team, or the name of one, can do for them, IMHO.

Thinking more about the fact that older kids are more self sufficient. I hate to send my Mite on the road with somebody due to the level of care that I am asking them to do. With my Bantam you tell him what time to be dressed, he does it. My mite you have to dress in his gear and etc. Bigger pain in neck......

Point about out of metro teams is a good one. How about opening up the cities teams to out of metro areas then. Sort of extend the NE corner of the cities all the way out? Same with SW, etc. This is demographics type stuff, could be figured out if the teams were formed.

You are right about pushing the cities out. Just because we don't need to travel as far to form competitive teams doesn't mean we shouldn't have to. No reason Blaine, Centennial, WBL, Forest Lake, etc. couldn't meet Grand Rapids, Duluth, etc. at Moose Lake. Push the city teams out to incorporate some outstate is the type of thinking that may bring something new and helpful to the state.

I know what you are saying, I never carpooled with Mites, just because I didn't want to ask people to help tie the skates too. And for practices I can ship my Bantam, I just like to have a blood relative at games to make decisions re: health. Sometimes that means grandpa or grandma. I have ran into a few coaches I fully trust with the decision regarding returning to the ice after a head trauma, and I imagine the level of coaching we are talking about here would probably be people with a lot of experience in evaluating players on the bench. I'm convinced, let's do it!

[jancze5]

Is anyone prepared to meet and put together a physical proposal for Minnesota Hockey on Tier 1 hockey?

Does anyone know if anyone has actually done one before.

If you are, let me know. It won't affect my kids by the time it could be approved, but it would many others down the road.

It's time to STOP bickering on a message board behind hidden names and start doing something. The process of research to implementation is probably 2-3 years. I'm tired of reading this topic for the last 3 years...FML