Wisconsin Fire

[Quasar]

NPC, how many out-of-state kids (or their parents) are really clamoring for such a team? I certainly understand when Twin City parents say they'd like to see a Tier I option, but seriously? You think you can get a team of really good players - per birthyear - to jump through all sorts of hoops just to practice in order to go on tour?

Unless there are about six teams in the state these Tier I teams are going to go to other areas where Tier I hockey is played at least some of the time.

There are at least three arguments for why there is a "need" for Tier I hockey in Minnesota:

• Choice - Get me out! Could also be accomplished with Tier II clubs.
  Competition - So the best only play against the best
  Nationals - As if winning the state tournament isn't a big enough deal.

Do I understand this correctly? Am I missing other main reasons?

You understand correctly....

The purists want Competition... They should have that choice

The rest just want a choice..

The Nationals is just a way to see how you stack up with the rest of the country

The problem as I see it is...

Anything that Minnesota Hockey offers as choice is something less than the Association model.

They should be offering a program that competes with the Associations for players ..

Most parents and players would choose what they considered the best for them..

However if you don't want to offer a choice because you think it will ruin Association Hockey ... What does that say ????

[Quasar]

Is anyone prepared to meet and put together a physical proposal for Minnesota Hockey on Tier 1 hockey?

Does anyone know if anyone has actually done one before.

If you are, let me know. It won't affect my kids by the time it could be approved, but it would many others down the road.

It's time to STOP bickering on a message board behind hidden names and start doing something. The process of research to implementation is probably 2-3 years. I'm tired of reading this topic for the last 3 years...FML

Here's the offer to get something started...

I wonder if anyone is really interested............

[yeti]

Maybe have a pole on this subject? You should be able to get a good idea from that how many are interested.

[SECoach]

Maybe have a pole on this subject? You should be able to get a good idea from that how many are interested.

To take a poll of the readers of this message board would not give anywhere near an accurate direction. It probably would bring false direction.

In regards to people putting together a proposal and hammering out ideas? Sorry, but here's my take. It would take 2-3 years to work it out. To the vast majority, that are only interested in their kid, it is much easier to find a way around the current rules, take advantage of the automatic waiver for school attendance, or flat out cheat to get what they say claim their kid wants (I doubt the kid cares).

Down the road, HPC teams will be put in place and the needs of future players will be met for a while. I do believe that people on this board will be dissapointed. The idea of 4, 5, 6 HPC teams in Minnesota alone is not likely, only in my opinion. It will be for the truly "elite" players. Not for the ones that are really pretty good.

All the ideas and talk of how these should be formed talks about the problems with logistics, travel, and cost. HPC teams should be for the very few players who, along with their families, have decided it's time to dedicate their lives to playing and excelling hockey. Figuring out who is going to drive and dress your mite won't be an issue.

[yeti]

"It would take 2-3 years to work it out. To the vast majority, that are only interested in their kid, it is much easier to find a way around the current rules, take advantage of the automatic waiver for school attendance, or flat out cheat to get what they say claim their kid wants (I doubt the kid cares). "

Wow with an outlook like this i'm glad your not coaching my kid.

[SECoach]

"It would take 2-3 years to work it out. To the vast majority, that are only interested in their kid, it is much easier to find a way around the current rules, take advantage of the automatic waiver for school attendance, or flat out cheat to get what they say claim their kid wants (I doubt the kid cares). "

Wow with an outlook like this i'm glad your not coaching my kid.

Because you have a problem with reality and straight talk? Exactly how does my outlook affect any players. Coaching and being an administrator are two different roles that have different focuses and responsibilities. I guess if you would read my post and decide you are glad I'm not coaching your kid you would be one of the first to scream for "options". I don't like my kids coach because he has an opinion on this topic. I'd like to be able to go play somewhere else. I believe in maintaining the health of our community based hockey system. Yeah, I guess that makes me not the right person to coach your kid. Especially because before each and every event I'm involved in I sit the players down and lay my political views on them. Gimme a break.

[yeti]

Wow i thought opinions were free around here, sorry if i somehow offended you, i just think cheating gets a person nowhere. I also think that not trying because of obsticles is not the way my kid will be brought up (life lesson).

[SECoach]

Wow i thought opinions were free around here, sorry if i somehow offended you, i just think cheating gets a person nowhere. I also think that not trying because of obsticles is not the way my kid will be brought up (life lesson).

Huh?

[HockeyDad41]

"It would take 2-3 years to work it out. To the vast majority, that are only interested in their kid, it is much easier to find a way around the current rules, take advantage of the automatic waiver for school attendance, or flat out cheat to get what they say claim their kid wants (I doubt the kid cares). "

Wow with an outlook like this i'm glad your not coaching my kid.

Because you have a problem with reality and straight talk? Exactly how does my outlook affect any players. Coaching and being an administrator are two different roles that have different focuses and responsibilities. I guess if you would read my post and decide you are glad I'm not coaching your kid you would be one of the first to scream for "options". I don't like my kids coach because he has an opinion on this topic. I'd like to be able to go play somewhere else. I believe in maintaining the health of our community based hockey system. Yeah, I guess that makes me not the right person to coach your kid. Especially because before each and every event I'm involved in I sit the players down and lay my political views on them. Gimme a break.

I guess with that new rule, you really could just find a school in an association that you like and enroll your kid there.

[royals dad]

NPC, how many out-of-state kids (or their parents) are really clamoring for such a team? I certainly understand when Twin City parents say they'd like to see a Tier I option, but seriously? You think you can get a team of really good players - per birthyear - to jump through all sorts of hoops just to practice in order to go on tour?

Unless there are about six teams in the state these Tier I teams are going to go to other areas where Tier I hockey is played at least some of the time.

There are at least three arguments for why there is a "need" for Tier I hockey in Minnesota:

• Choice - Get me out! Could also be accomplished with Tier II clubs.
  Competition - So the best only play against the best
  Nationals - As if winning the state tournament isn't a big enough deal.

Do I understand this correctly? Am I missing other main reasons?

You understand correctly....

The purists want Competition... They should have that choice

The rest just want a choice..

The Nationals is just a way to see how you stack up with the rest of the country

The problem as I see it is...

Anything that Minnesota Hockey offers as choice is something less than the Association model.

They should be offering a program that competes with the Associations for players ..

Most parents and players would choose what they considered the best for them..

However if you don't want to offer a choice because you think it will ruin Association Hockey ... What does that say ????

I don't think you can talk about Tier 1 as a choice issue because your only talking about the top 30 to 45 kids per age group. When you talk about the issue of "choice" I am hearing that you mean no more association borders, then yes you do "ruin" our current system.

[SECoach]

"It would take 2-3 years to work it out. To the vast majority, that are only interested in their kid, it is much easier to find a way around the current rules, take advantage of the automatic waiver for school attendance, or flat out cheat to get what they say claim their kid wants (I doubt the kid cares). "

Wow with an outlook like this i'm glad your not coaching my kid.

Because you have a problem with reality and straight talk? Exactly how does my outlook affect any players. Coaching and being an administrator are two different roles that have different focuses and responsibilities. I guess if you would read my post and decide you are glad I'm not coaching your kid you would be one of the first to scream for "options". I don't like my kids coach because he has an opinion on this topic. I'd like to be able to go play somewhere else. I believe in maintaining the health of our community based hockey system. Yeah, I guess that makes me not the right person to coach your kid. Especially because before each and every event I'm involved in I sit the players down and lay my political views on them. Gimme a break.

I guess with that new rule, you really could just find a school in an association that you like and enroll your kid there.

Correct. Is is happening at a relatively brisk pace at young ages. I'm simply saying that with this "choice" it's unlikely that the people it affects will roll up their sleeves and put together a group to design and propose a workable solution to Minnesota Hockey. Because of that, we will have to wait for the slow wheels of change to make it happen, if it does.

Maybe the creation of a true border between the Minnesota and Wisconsin affiliates will help get people what they are asking for rather than take it away. There's no reason to change rules if people don't have to follow them in the first place.

[Quasar]

[

quote="royals dad"]

You understand correctly....

The purists want Competition... They should have that choice

The rest just want a choice..

The Nationals is just a way to see how you stack up with the rest of the country

The problem as I see it is...

Anything that Minnesota Hockey offers as choice is something less than the Association model.

They should be offering a program that competes with the Associations for players ..

Most parents and players would choose what they considered the best for them..

However if you don't want to offer a choice because you think it will ruin Association Hockey ... What does that say ????

I don't think you can talk about Tier 1 as a choice issue because your only talking about the top 30 to 45 kids per age group. When you talk about the issue of "choice" I am hearing that you mean no more association borders, then yes you do "ruin" our current system.

If that's the case, Minnesota hockey will have to address the existing choice leagues that are already in operation.

How long before they start to replace association hockey ???

[SECoach]

[

quote="royals dad"]

You understand correctly....

The purists want Competition... They should have that choice

The rest just want a choice..

The Nationals is just a way to see how you stack up with the rest of the country

The problem as I see it is...

Anything that Minnesota Hockey offers as choice is something less than the Association model.

They should be offering a program that competes with the Associations for players ..

Most parents and players would choose what they considered the best for them..

However if you don't want to offer a choice because you think it will ruin Association Hockey ... What does that say ????

I don't think you can talk about Tier 1 as a choice issue because your only talking about the top 30 to 45 kids per age group. When you talk about the issue of "choice" I am hearing that you mean no more association borders, then yes you do "ruin" our current system.

If that's the case, Minnesota hockey will have to address the existing choice leagues that are already in operation.

How long before they start to replace association hockey ???

They don't need to address the existing "choice" leagues. They are not affiliated with USA or Minnesota Hockey. Do they need to look at other products in the market and determine how they effect them? Sure. The misconception is that they have blinders on and are pretending they are not there. Personally I don't think we will be seeing a "choice league" national championship anytime soon.

[royals dad]

If that's the case, Minnesota hockey will have to address the existing choice leagues that are already in operation.

How long before they start to replace association hockey ???

See the D6 thread on this. They (D6) seem to me to be saying if you want to chose then chose but you cant do both (in winter season). Choice leagues will not achieve the critical mass needed to provide a viable alternative to associations unless they can ease there way in. Right now they seem to be a nice house league with good development but not much more.

[Quasar]

If that's the case, Minnesota hockey will have to address the existing choice leagues that are already in operation.

How long before they start to replace association hockey ???

See the D6 thread on this. They (D6) seem to me to be saying if you want to chose then chose but you cant do both (in winter season). Choice leagues will not achieve the critical mass needed to provide a viable alternative to associations unless they can ease there way in. Right now they seem to be a nice house league with good development but not much more.

I agree .....

I think this will have to be addressed by Minnesota Hockey, because eventually it will become more than just a district problem.

[MrBoDangles]

Hard to believe that people would choose the Choice League when all winter associations (Minnesota model) are perfect.....

The Choice type model is in it's infancy and the way it's looking MN hockey's restraints could be it's demise.

District 6 is simply pushing families away.

[SECoach]

Hard to believe that people would choose the Choice League when all winter associations (Minnesota model) are perfect.....

The Choice type model is in it's infancy and the way it's looking MN hockey's restraints could be it's demise.

District 6 is simply pushing families away.

The MSHSL has had the same rule for years and they haven't pushed many families away. Maybe some, but very few. You cannot roster on another team in the same sport during the official season with the exception of baseball, softball, nordic skiing, and maybe one or two others.

www.admkids.com

You sound as if you think USA and Minnesota Hockey are doing nothing. You are wrong about that. The needs of the "elite" players will be met. I'm not sure they can ever meet the needs of the parents who think they have an "elite" player but don't. They will be unsatisfied anywhere they go.

[MrBoDangles]

Hard to believe that people would choose the Choice League when all winter associations (Minnesota model) are perfect.....

The Choice type model is in it's infancy and the way it's looking MN hockey's restraints could be it's demise.

District 6 is simply pushing families away.

The MSHSL has had the same rule for years and they haven't pushed many families away. Maybe some, but very few. You cannot roster on another team in the same sport during the official season with the exception of baseball, softball, nordic skiing, and maybe one or two others.

www.admkids.com

You sound as if you think USA and Minnesota Hockey are doing nothing. You are wrong about that. The needs of the "elite" players will be met. I'm not sure they can ever meet the needs of the parents who think they have an "elite" player but don't. They will be unsatisfied anywhere they go.

Where will parents choose to have their kids play......... 100+ hours of top notch training or limited ice time, parent coached, association hockey? I'm not saying I'm for this trend, I'm just saying that is what it's coming to. The D6 rule might come back to haunt them.

[SECoach]

Hard to believe that people would choose the Choice League when all winter associations (Minnesota model) are perfect.....

The Choice type model is in it's infancy and the way it's looking MN hockey's restraints could be it's demise.

District 6 is simply pushing families away.

The MSHSL has had the same rule for years and they haven't pushed many families away. Maybe some, but very few. You cannot roster on another team in the same sport during the official season with the exception of baseball, softball, nordic skiing, and maybe one or two others.



www.admkids.com

You sound as if you think USA and Minnesota Hockey are doing nothing. You are wrong about that. The needs of the "elite" players will be met. I'm not sure they can ever meet the needs of the parents who think they have an "elite" player but don't. They will be unsatisfied anywhere they go.

Where will parents choose to have their kids play......... 100+ hours of top notch training or limited ice time, parent coached, association hockey? I'm not saying I'm for this trend, I'm just saying that is what it's coming to. The D6 rule might come back to haunt them.

Yes, you are right that some will choose 100+ hours of "top notch" training. Most will not. Trends come and go. As the trend moves to labeling very young children as elite and taking away a great deal of their "kid" time or desparately wanting our kids to "keep up" the organizations with the true interest of the kids will SLOWLY adjust to meet the proper needs of children. As this happens, through research and education, the trend will shift. No doubt there is a trend towards early specialization and heavy training. I believe that trend will reverse when the kids doing it now as mites and squirts get old enough to verbalize their feelings.

7-12 year olds want nothing more than to please their parents. 13-18 year olds tend to begin to let them know what they now want. A few players will stay the course, but most will develop other interests. They might still play, but without the interest of ability they may have had if they had not overtrained and over competed at such a young age. There will then be masses of people asking what went wrong. All the time and money spent will have been for what. A great experience? I believe they will say otherwise and it will show with their lack of interest at older ages. Certainly, some will develop into elite players just as they always have. Will we see huge increases in that? The research shows otherwise. We will see fewer.

I recognize that my opinions are nothing more than theories, just as yours are. There is solid research to support mine. What is your opinion based on?

I agree that many associations needed and still need to improve. Yours might not be yet but many, many are. If we have the choice league to thank for that, then great but if it comes down to who plays more full ice mite games then that trend will burn out quickly.

[O-townClown]

Hard to believe that people would choose the Choice League when all winter associations (Minnesota model) are perfect.....

The Choice type model is in it's infancy and the way it's looking MN hockey's restraints could be it's demise.

District 6 is simply pushing families away.

The McBain Choice league works because he controls the rinks, and they are smack dab in the center of the most hockey-laden area of the state.

People are free to go off the grid in any part of the state. Why do you think most people play with their association under the auspices of MAHA and AHAUS (sorry for the old names)?

Kids still want to play for their home town in most of the areas served by Minnesota Made. Crazy, isn't it?

[Quasar]

Hard to believe that people would choose the Choice League when all winter associations (Minnesota model) are perfect.....

The Choice type model is in it's infancy and the way it's looking MN hockey's restraints could be it's demise.

District 6 is simply pushing families away.

The McBain Choice league works because he controls the rinks, and they are smack dab in the center of the most hockey-laden area of the state.

People are free to go off the grid in any part of the state. Why do you think most people play with their association under the auspices of MAHA and AHAUS (sorry for the old names)?

Kids still want to play for their home town in most of the areas served by Minnesota Made. Crazy, isn't it?

I guess someone should tell the Jr Blades if they don't control the rinks their program won't work ...Oh .. Wait they filled up overnight oops

[jancze5]

can someone explain to me this...so if a kid from D6 goes over and plays Squirt and PW Choice for 4 years, does the district and association not welcome him back as a Bantam? Is that the rule? What's the difference between him and a kid off the block who decides at 12 he wants to play hockey? For all intensive purposes, he's simply a new kid to the program, no?

I guess we'll see how this plays out, the first 6' 2" 215 linebacker/right wing to come from the choice league and get drafted someday will be the marquee role model...joking guys relax, but seriously, the law of averages
support that in a few years, one of Bernies grown players is going to be the man.

[goaliewithfoggedglasses]

can someone explain to me this...so if a kid from D6 goes over and plays Squirt and PW Choice for 4 years, does the district and association not welcome him back as a Bantam? Is that the rule? What's the difference between him and a kid off the block who decides at 12 he wants to play hockey? For all intensive purposes, he's simply a new kid to the program, no?

I guess we'll see how this plays out, the first 6' 2" 215 linebacker/right wing to come from the choice league and get drafted someday will be the marquee role model...joking guys relax, but seriously, the law of averages
support that in a few years, one of Bernies grown players is going to be the man.

They can come back at any time. The rule just says you have to choose one or the other, but not BOTH.

[HockeyDad41]

Hard to believe that people would choose the Choice League when all winter associations (Minnesota model) are perfect.....

The Choice type model is in it's infancy and the way it's looking MN hockey's restraints could be it's demise.

District 6 is simply pushing families away.

The McBain Choice league works because he controls the rinks, and they are smack dab in the center of the most hockey-laden area of the state.

People are free to go off the grid in any part of the state. Why do you think most people play with their association under the auspices of MAHA and AHAUS (sorry for the old names)?

Kids still want to play for their home town in most of the areas served by Minnesota Made. Crazy, isn't it?

If everyone who wanted to be part of the Choice League could, it would be a much larger league. Depending on your point of view, the fact that it is limited by the number of ice sheets they have over there might be a good thing or a bad thing.

I would argue that the reason most people play with their association is that they are a captive audience. D6 has done a nice job of hammering that point home with their new rule.

[yeti]

So since this thread is about the Fire does anyone know if they are fielding teams this year or not? They were removed from the warrior invite list for some reason.