Wisconsin Fire

[SECoach]

Hard to believe that people would choose the Choice League when all winter associations (Minnesota model) are perfect.....

The Choice type model is in it's infancy and the way it's looking MN hockey's restraints could be it's demise.

District 6 is simply pushing families away.

The McBain Choice league works because he controls the rinks, and they are smack dab in the center of the most hockey-laden area of the state.

People are free to go off the grid in any part of the state. Why do you think most people play with their association under the auspices of MAHA and AHAUS (sorry for the old names)?

Kids still want to play for their home town in most of the areas served by Minnesota Made. Crazy, isn't it?

If everyone who wanted to be part of the Choice League could, it would be a much larger league. Depending on your point of view, the fact that it is limited by the number of ice sheets they have over there might be a good thing or a bad thing.

I would argue that the reason most people play with their association is that they are a captive audience. D6 has done a nice job of hammering that point home with their new rule.

I would argue that most people play with their association because it works for them.

[MrBoDangles]

Hard to believe that people would choose the Choice League when all winter associations (Minnesota model) are perfect.....

The Choice type model is in it's infancy and the way it's looking MN hockey's restraints could be it's demise.

District 6 is simply pushing families away.

The McBain Choice league works because he controls the rinks, and they are smack dab in the center of the most hockey-laden area of the state.

People are free to go off the grid in any part of the state. Why do you think most people play with their association under the auspices of MAHA and AHAUS (sorry for the old names)?

Kids still want to play for their home town in most of the areas served by Minnesota Made. Crazy, isn't it?

Is the Choice league full?

How many more would join if they could?

Is Bernie making money doing all this CRAZY Hockey stuff?

Kids develop with more ice. Crazy, isn't it?

[MrBoDangles]

The McBain Choice league works because he controls the rinks, and they are smack dab in the center of the most hockey-laden area of the state.

People are free to go off the grid in any part of the state. Why do you think most people play with their association under the auspices of MAHA and AHAUS (sorry for the old names)?

Kids still want to play for their home town in most of the areas served by Minnesota Made. Crazy, isn't it?

If everyone who wanted to be part of the Choice League could, it would be a much larger league. Depending on your point of view, the fact that it is limited by the number of ice sheets they have over there might be a good thing or a bad thing.

I would argue that the reason most people play with their association is that they are a captive audience. D6 has done a nice job of hammering that point home with their new rule.

I would argue that most people play with their association because it works for them.

There are some good ones and there are some bad ones.

Even in the good ones there are bad situations.
- Coach and player butt heads
- Coach and parents butt heads
- Teams get locked up by who the parents friends are.
- jealous coaches..... They can make a season real hard on a kid." Pass the puck" ~ OTC
- Favoratism..... Coaches kid is on the ice the hour before with older brother.
- Terrible ice times for the younger kids
- etc
- etc
- etc

The list is ten times as long in a weak association.

The Fire was a option for some of these kids.....

[O-townClown]

I guess someone should tell the Jr Blades if they don't control the rinks their program won't work ...Oh .. Wait they filled up overnight oops

If I recall, they aren't using municipal rinks either. Club hockey will hit a hurdle when the ice time is spoken for by all the clubs because associations will still probably have priority at municipal rinks.

[HockeyDad41]

The McBain Choice league works because he controls the rinks, and they are smack dab in the center of the most hockey-laden area of the state.

People are free to go off the grid in any part of the state. Why do you think most people play with their association under the auspices of MAHA and AHAUS (sorry for the old names)?

Kids still want to play for their home town in most of the areas served by Minnesota Made. Crazy, isn't it?

If everyone who wanted to be part of the Choice League could, it would be a much larger league. Depending on your point of view, the fact that it is limited by the number of ice sheets they have over there might be a good thing or a bad thing.

I would argue that the reason most people play with their association is that they are a captive audience. D6 has done a nice job of hammering that point home with their new rule.

I would argue that most people play with their association because it works for them.

You are absolutely correct. I should have said that I would argue that the reason most people, who care about giving their kid an opportunity to develop their game at a higher level and to skate with other kids of similar skill levels have their kid play for their associations is because they are a captive audience. Maybe a couple of players at each level fall into this group. For the rest? You nailed it. Apathy as usuall. It works for them.

[MrBoDangles]

I guess someone should tell the Jr Blades if they don't control the rinks their program won't work ...Oh .. Wait they filled up overnight oops

If I recall, they aren't using municipal rinks either. Club hockey will hit a hurdle when the ice time is spoken for by all the clubs because associations will still probably have priority at municipal rinks.

I know there was a group, in the north metro, that was looking to put ice in a existing structure. I guess it's not hard to figure out the money being "Made".

[O-townClown]

I know there was a group, in the north metro, that was looking to put ice in a existing structure. I guess it's not hard to figure out the money being "Made".

Folks are in for a rude awakening if they think a lot of money is being made by owning and running an ice rink. The going rate for ice in Minnesota is held down by the municipal rinks.

You are correct. If there is enough demand for club or non-USA Hockey hockey there will be a real business opportunity for the person who fills that need.

[HockeyDad41]

I honestly can't understand what all the fuss is about. MM is doing a decent job catering to the small percentage of people that want something more than the association can provide. The Fire was doing a nice job catering to an extremely small portion of kids that wanted a little more. If a couple more MM type places spring up and cater to 1/10 of a percent of skaters out there, what is the big deal?

A one size fits all needs association model doesn't work for everyone. Why would you even care if a small percentage take their kids somewhere different? Why would you stand in the way of that? Just because you can?

[MrBoDangles]

I know there was a group, in the north metro, that was looking to put ice in a existing structure. I guess it's not hard to figure out the money being "Made".

Folks are in for a rude awakening if they think a lot of money is being made by owning and running an ice rink. The going rate for ice in Minnesota is held down by the municipal rinks.

You are correct. If there is enough demand for club or non-USA Hockey hockey there will be a real business opportunity for the person who fills that need.

Big difference between a Made operation and a 180.00$ an hour a muni rink takes in. Do you think those kids are skating for free? Is there a charge for dryland training?

[SECoach]

If everyone who wanted to be part of the Choice League could, it would be a much larger league. Depending on your point of view, the fact that it is limited by the number of ice sheets they have over there might be a good thing or a bad thing.

I would argue that the reason most people play with their association is that they are a captive audience. D6 has done a nice job of hammering that point home with their new rule.

I would argue that most people play with their association because it works for them.

You are absolutely correct. I should have said that I would argue that the reason most people, who care about giving their kid an opportunity to develop their game at a higher level and to skate with other kids of similar skill levels have their kid play for their associations is because they are a captive audience. Maybe a couple of players at each level fall into this group. For the rest? You nailed it. Apathy as usuall. It works for them.

I'm sorry? The reason thousands of families are satisfied with or help their associations is apathy? Wouldn't it be nice if they all knew how much better their kids lives could be if they took the path of true caring parents and put them on the ice more? Push them harder, turn them into driven athletes, take away any chance at unstructured play where they learn to be creative, resolve problems, and learn to be self sufficient and make decisions.

ALL credible research shows that very, very, very few YOUNG players can sustain the pace they are being driven on. Does more ice time make a player better? Without a doubt. Does it make them elite? Once in a while, for the player that was built to be elite from the start.

I'll take long term development over developing elite mites and squirts any day. Ya i know, your kid is different.

[MrBoDangles]

I would argue that most people play with their association because it works for them.

You are absolutely correct. I should have said that I would argue that the reason most people, who care about giving their kid an opportunity to develop their game at a higher level and to skate with other kids of similar skill levels have their kid play for their associations is because they are a captive audience. Maybe a couple of players at each level fall into this group. For the rest? You nailed it. Apathy as usuall. It works for them.

I'm sorry? The reason thousands of families are satisfied with or help their associations is apathy? Wouldn't it be nice if they all knew how much better their kids lives could be if they took the path of true caring parents and put them on the ice more? Push them harder, turn them into driven athletes, take away any chance at unstructured play where they learn to be creative, resolve problems, and learn to be self sufficient and make decisions.

ALL credible research shows that very, very, very few YOUNG players can sustain the pace they are being driven on. Does more ice time make a player better? Without a doubt. Does it make them elite? Once in a while, for the player that was built to be elite from the start.

I'll take long term development over developing elite mites and squirts any day. Ya i know, your kid is different.

You are right, there is a fine line... Parents should never steer their kids away from friends or a fun situation. Fun is the biggest key to development. I agree, some of that is being taken away by parents.

[Task Force 34]

So since this thread is about the Fire does anyone know if they are fielding teams this year or not? They were removed from the warrior invite list for some reason.

Come on, someone has to know something out there?

[HockeyDad41]

I would argue that most people play with their association because it works for them.

You are absolutely correct. I should have said that I would argue that the reason most people, who care about giving their kid an opportunity to develop their game at a higher level and to skate with other kids of similar skill levels have their kid play for their associations is because they are a captive audience. Maybe a couple of players at each level fall into this group. For the rest? You nailed it. Apathy as usuall. It works for them.

I'm sorry? The reason thousands of families are satisfied with or help their associations is apathy? Wouldn't it be nice if they all knew how much better their kids lives could be if they took the path of true caring parents and put them on the ice more? Push them harder, turn them into driven athletes, take away any chance at unstructured play where they learn to be creative, resolve problems, and learn to be self sufficient and make decisions.

ALL credible research shows that very, very, very few YOUNG players can sustain the pace they are being driven on. Does more ice time make a player better? Without a doubt. Does it make them elite? Once in a while, for the player that was built to be elite from the start.

I'll take long term development over developing elite mites and squirts any day. Ya i know, your kid is different.

You assume too much.

When I say some people at the association want more, I am talking about the people that think maybe 2-3 trips to the rink a week is an all right number not what you are portraying. Nobody is driving their kids except maybe to practice.

From the sounds of it you are in a nice association that works for you. You can't be that naive to think they are all perfect and that there might not be some perfectly reasonable folks in some not so perfect association out there who want something better for their kid.

I will also take long term development. My kid is no elite player, but he wants to skate more than 18 hours this season.

[InigoMontoya]

can someone explain to me this...so if a kid from D6 goes over and plays Squirt and PW Choice for 4 years, does the district and association not welcome him back as a Bantam? Is that the rule? What's the difference between him and a kid off the block who decides at 12 he wants to play hockey? For all intensive purposes, he's simply a new kid to the program, no?

I guess we'll see how this plays out, the first 6' 2" 215 linebacker/right wing to come from the choice league and get drafted someday will be the marquee role model...joking guys relax, but seriously, the law of averages
support that in a few years, one of Bernies grown players is going to be the man.

They can come back at any time. The rule just says you have to choose one or the other, but not BOTH.

Is there a MH rule regarding these kids having to play at the lowest level when they return to their association? I can't find one on the website, as I read the (last year's) handbook. There is an association suggesting that their district is following MH policy regarding the return of these kids, but I don't find it on that district's website either.

[TriedThat2]

There is nothing from MH that dictates the return. Associations may have their unwritten rules, but if a grievance is filed by the skater, I'm confident that MH would back the skater and not the Association.

[MrBoDangles]

You are absolutely correct. I should have said that I would argue that the reason most people, who care about giving their kid an opportunity to develop their game at a higher level and to skate with other kids of similar skill levels have their kid play for their associations is because they are a captive audience. Maybe a couple of players at each level fall into this group. For the rest? You nailed it. Apathy as usuall. It works for them.

I'm sorry? The reason thousands of families are satisfied with or help their associations is apathy? Wouldn't it be nice if they all knew how much better their kids lives could be if they took the path of true caring parents and put them on the ice more? Push them harder, turn them into driven athletes, take away any chance at unstructured play where they learn to be creative, resolve problems, and learn to be self sufficient and make decisions.

ALL credible research shows that very, very, very few YOUNG players can sustain the pace they are being driven on. Does more ice time make a player better? Without a doubt. Does it make them elite? Once in a while, for the player that was built to be elite from the start.

I'll take long term development over developing elite mites and squirts any day. Ya i know, your kid is different.

You assume too much.

When I say some people at the association want more, I am talking about the people that think maybe 2-3 trips to the rink a week is an all right number not what you are portraying. Nobody is driving their kids except maybe to practice.

From the sounds of it you are in a nice association that works for you. You can't be that naive to think they are all perfect and that there might not be some perfectly reasonable folks in some not so perfect association out there who want something better for their kid.

I will also take long term development. My kid is no elite player, but he wants to skate more than 18 hours this season.

Some on here would say.......... "Tough, deal with it". Then the same people complain when you go somewhere else (better situation) to deal with it.

For them, it's all about keeping others down.

[SECoach]

You are absolutely correct. I should have said that I would argue that the reason most people, who care about giving their kid an opportunity to develop their game at a higher level and to skate with other kids of similar skill levels have their kid play for their associations is because they are a captive audience. Maybe a couple of players at each level fall into this group. For the rest? You nailed it. Apathy as usuall. It works for them.

I'm sorry? The reason thousands of families are satisfied with or help their associations is apathy? Wouldn't it be nice if they all knew how much better their kids lives could be if they took the path of true caring parents and put them on the ice more? Push them harder, turn them into driven athletes, take away any chance at unstructured play where they learn to be creative, resolve problems, and learn to be self sufficient and make decisions.

ALL credible research shows that very, very, very few YOUNG players can sustain the pace they are being driven on. Does more ice time make a player better? Without a doubt. Does it make them elite? Once in a while, for the player that was built to be elite from the start.

I'll take long term development over developing elite mites and squirts any day. Ya i know, your kid is different.

You assume too much.

When I say some people at the association want more, I am talking about the people that think maybe 2-3 trips to the rink a week is an all right number not what you are portraying. Nobody is driving their kids except maybe to practice.

From the sounds of it you are in a nice association that works for you. You can't be that naive to think they are all perfect and that there might not be some perfectly reasonable folks in some not so perfect association out there who want something better for their kid.

I will also take long term development. My kid is no elite player, but he wants to skate more than 18 hours this season.

People leave my perfect association too. No matter how much ice is provided.

If your association is providing only 18 hours of ice for your son or daughter (assuming they are not 4) they could use some help. Send me a PM and I'd be glad to send you in the right direction or makes some contacts on your behalf.

[murray]

ALL credible research shows that very, very, very few YOUNG players can sustain the pace they are being driven on. Does more ice time make a player better? Without a doubt. Does it make them elite? Once in a while, for the player that was built to be elite from the start.quote

SEC can you give me a few of these links to look at all the research? thx

OTC, is there somewhere to look to get an idea how much ice would cost if municipalities didn't "keep the price down". just wondering how you've come up with that statement?

[JSR]

ALL credible research shows that very, very, very few YOUNG players can sustain the pace they are being driven on. Does more ice time make a player better? Without a doubt. Does it make them elite? Once in a while, for the player that was built to be elite from the start.quote

SEC can you give me a few of these links to look at all the research? thx

OTC, is there somewhere to look to get an idea how much ice would cost if municipalities didn't "keep the price down". just wondering how you've come up with that statement?

Yeah, I don't get that whole muni run rinks keep ice prices down thing. Maybe right in the city but in the state at large I doubt it. Most rinks in Wisconsin are no muni owned, private owned, and our ice prices are about the same as your muni prices up in MN. I don't get it?

[O-townClown]

OTC, is there somewhere to look to get an idea how much ice would cost if municipalities didn't "keep the price down". just wondering how you've come up with that statement?

Nationally, a "normal" rate you'd see is betwen 250-400 for the hours you'd want. (Weeknight practice between 5-9 pm.)

Rinks aren't making oodles of money or you'd see more popping up.

Anecdotally, there's the story of a rink manager from the South that took a job with a municipal rink in the North. The friends asked how he was doing and the response was, "Great! They love me up here! The rink only lost $400,000 last year!"

If you look at the books of the municipalities to see whether ice rinks are a profit-center, breakeven, or amenity provided at a cost you'll see the latter in many cases.

Of course, there are many, many variables. For one, if you want to go on the cheap and have cold weather it is still possible to provide "natural" ice for a few months of the year.

The notion that club hockey is going to take over the Minnesota landscape is complicated by the fact that you can call BIG and the Bloomington association took a lot of the desirable ice, you'll call Braemar and Edina's got it, in Eden Prairie it is their association. Minnesota has some private sector rinks. They can't handle a lot of demand right now.

Facilities are a limiting factor to rampant club hockey.

[O-townClown]

For them, it's all about keeping others down.

Wow, do you and I ever have a different world view. I've never sensed that anyone has ever tried to hold people down as it relates to hockey. Well, beyond the parent that thinks somehow artificially propping up their kid helps some way.

Who is being "kept down" by people that want to keep them down?

To this point it is evident that you are clearly agitated that Minnesota Hockey's "best for most" approach doesn't place your perception of your needs above those of all others. Now The Man is out to get ya'?

Where does this come from?

[JSR]

OTC, is there somewhere to look to get an idea how much ice would cost if municipalities didn't "keep the price down". just wondering how you've come up with that statement?

Nationally, a "normal" rate you'd see is betwen 250-400 for the hours you'd want. (Weeknight practice between 5-9 pm.)

Rinks aren't making oodles of money or you'd see more popping up.

Anecdotally, there's the story of a rink manager from the South that took a job with a municipal rink in the North. The friends asked how he was doing and the response was, "Great! They love me up here! The rink only lost $400,000 last year!"

If you look at the books of the municipalities to see whether ice rinks are a profit-center, breakeven, or amenity provided at a cost you'll see the latter in many cases.

Of course, there are many, many variables. For one, if you want to go on the cheap and have cold weather it is still possible to provide "natural" ice for a few months of the year.

The notion that club hockey is going to take over the Minnesota landscape is complicated by the fact that you can call BIG and the Bloomington association took a lot of the desirable ice, you'll call Braemar and Edina's got it, in Eden Prairie it is their association. Minnesota has some private sector rinks. They can't handle a lot of demand right now.

Facilities are a limiting factor to rampant club hockey.

I do not disbelieve the rates you provided but hose rates are more than likely inflated by major metro areas. Chicago and Detroit for instance probably have outrageous rates. Same with Los Angelas and New York etc.... Whereas a privately owned rink in Tomah, WI versus a muni rink in Willmar, MN probably seel ice for about the same price

[royals dad]

"Facilities are a limiting factor to rampant club hockey."

In winter season yes, however, it is the opposite in the summer season. Club hockey in summer creates new revenues for those arenas. The system that has evolved in Minnesota is a good one on many levels.

It seems that we all pay in quite a bit but I don't know that very many people are getting rich off of hockey. It has been said many times but you could easily skate 365 days a year in Minnesota if that is what your looking for. If you want more ice go and get it if you don't know where to look put a post on this board that asks "I have a top squirt in the far east metro and want more ice in the winter, any suggestions?". The wolfpack guy will probably put something on there but the rest will most likely be helpful.

A lot of posters seem to take the stance that your either with me or against me but if you look close I have seen many posts and suggestions over these 20 pages and very little "tough deal with it" but seems like that is all you see regardless of what the content is.

[SECoach]

ALL credible research shows that very, very, very few YOUNG players can sustain the pace they are being driven on. Does more ice time make a player better? Without a doubt. Does it make them elite? Once in a while, for the player that was built to be elite from the start.quote

SEC can you give me a few of these links to look at all the research? thx

OTC, is there somewhere to look to get an idea how much ice would cost if municipalities didn't "keep the price down". just wondering how you've come up with that statement?

Sure. Start here www.admkids.com and I'll follow up with more.

[muckandgrind]

ALL credible research shows that very, very, very few YOUNG players can sustain the pace they are being driven on. Does more ice time make a player better? Without a doubt. Does it make them elite? Once in a while, for the player that was built to be elite from the start.quote

SEC can you give me a few of these links to look at all the research? thx

OTC, is there somewhere to look to get an idea how much ice would cost if municipalities didn't "keep the price down". just wondering how you've come up with that statement?

Sure. Start here www.admkids.com and I'll follow up with more.

ADM is only a THEORY....I'm not saying they are wrong, just that there is no proof to indicate that the ADM model is needed or will work. Only time will tell.