Is Rochester Red the 12th team in the D9 Peewee A playoffs?

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:02 pm

I think the point is the rules changed mid stream, not what's best for 17 kids on Rochester Red. From November until January something changed allowing Rochester Red to send a PWA and Bantam A team to districts. where they weren't going to originally. If they were always going to districts this sure wasn't communicated by district 9, which is an issue the district dropped the ball on.

Should Shattuck be allowed to enter their 2 bantam A teams in the district 9 tournament in future years as well? My guess is Rochester would cry the loudest against it.

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:05 pm

I can't speak for what is right for Mankato.

I will ask you a question. Was it right for LuVerne to jump from D4 and play in D9 as a guest, only to be back in D4 for playoffs? They are a solid D9 team and likely skewed the standings for the teams in the West?

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:06 pm

If you look at the 8-team format originally published, the only play-in game mentioned was the following statement: "Bantam A & PWA-loser of Game 12 will have Play in game to Regions vs 4 seed from Dist. 8". That is exactly as stated in the bottom center of the page (I have a copy). Further, there are no play-in games shown in the brackets (for example, West 4 versus West 5 with the winner taking the West 4 seed and playing the East 1 seed).

No teams are listed by name. Teams are listed by East 1, East 2, etc and a specific night and game time stated. East 1 plays West 4 at 6:00 pm on Thurs 2-17-11 at Mankato. That is very clear and easily understood.

On the new format published by D9, the play-in games are added with a table that has the seedings broken into two groups, an East and a West group. Each group has six seeds. The D9 East this year, after playing collectively 42 regular season D9 games, had six teams finishing 1 through 6. The West had 5 teams finishing 1 through 5 (Luverne is playing in D4).

But the West is seeding not five teams but six teams. That was earlier this week. Now D9 has changed their Peewee A league to list all 12 teams (including Luverne) in order of their won/lost record. The East/West division is gone. After playing all those games over the past three months, the implication is that the seeding will be subjective and not tied to the order of finish in each division.

Each team in each division played a home and home with each other (total of 10 games) and four games with teams in the other division. That no longer has meaning.

Something stinks.

Chalk_Talk · Post by **Chalk_Talk** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:09 pm

Concerned Hockey Coach wrote:
Chalk_Talk wrote: MN hockey is loosing it's triditions, kids playing for thier school pride, kids playing with thier neighbors,kids going to private schools, AAA coaches recruiting kids to their association, associations controlling MN hockey. What is next?? This are some of the things that are causing the beginning of the end. That is what is going down the crapper. I have watched it all happen. Didn't happen when I was playing. Grass is always greener

D9 as a whole might be towards the bottom of the barrel, but there are a few good teams that can compete with each other, but they are too good to stick around., how do you get to the top we you have associations that think they are too good for the rest??? Beat them oh wait that is happeing already.

Regarding your last statment, who did they leave for competition with Kato. I'm not saying that kato is some power house, cause they are NOT.
Would Roch have beaten Mankato 8 years ago when they went to state as peewee. Blah blah,

Tradition starts with High schoolers and falls a down to you associations. Who do the youth kids look up to big bros/sis, and their buddies that play the game. We are the youth assocations
That strong peewee team must have crushed Kato this year, oh ya they beat them by 1, squirts same thing beat them by 1 twice. Just wondering who Roch thinks they are?? Why not help make other communites around you stronger, just run away.... Sore subject if you can't tell..thx
You're talking to the wrong guy... I don't think youth hockey associations exist to create good HS hockey teams, they exist to develop players and to do that you can't have 24 games on your schedule where only 3 or 4 games (or less) are competitive games... Rochester is looking out for its own and that's what it should do. It owes nothing to other associations.

You never answered my question with regard to last year and Rochester Red... who would have beaten every team in D9 this year by 4-15 goals... I saw them play on numerous occasions...

MN Hockey can't just throw districts together without considering the competitive repercussions of creating districts without taking competition in mind.

Would roch have beaten kato 8 yrs ago when their peewee team went to state?Blah Blah

Who do the youth in these assocaations look up to? their high school teams, big bro/sis and their buddies. Yes, it is about development but who are they developing for? High School.

Chalk_Talk · Post by **Chalk_Talk** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:19 pm

BadgerBob82 wrote:I can't speak for what is right for Mankato.

I will ask you a question. Was it right for LuVerne to jump from D4 and play in D9 as a guest, only to be back in D4 for playoffs? They are a solid D9 team and likely skewed the standings for the teams in the West?

No I don't think it was right for Luverne to Jump ship and play dist 9. They should have played a district 9 and district 4 schedule. There are only two other teams in distr 4.

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:25 pm

Goldy: The minute D8 kicked Rochester out and D9 was formed, Rochester said they didn't want to "waste" their time playing a bunch of "B" teams. They fought tooth and nail to stay in D8, which you will note has 3-4 of the top 10 ranked PW teams.

This was not a last minute deal. It was done on Day 1. And if D9 said, nope gotta play league games, the Red team would have and gone 14-0-0 with a cumlative score of 160-14. Unless the cross-over games were with Mankato.

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:26 pm

Fred: Everything has now been posted. D9 got it right. All is good with the world!

Chalk_Talk · Post by **Chalk_Talk** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:28 pm

Is this same issue happening with Bantams?

Concerned Hockey Coach · Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:32 pm

It really bothers me as a coach to hear people try to demonize Rochester Red for doing what's best for its players and the association.

We should be applauding Rochester for raising its B1 teams to A and competing in D9, knowing that Rochester Red would trounce the other two A2 teams in the playoffs... Many associations would not have been so bold and would have worried about having more than 1 unequal A team at the PeeWee A level.

Now I know that this wouldn't work if D9 were D8 since Rochester's two A2 teams are not PeeWee A level teams, but rather B1 teams in that district.

But kudos to Rochester for giving as many of its kids as possible as challenging and developmentally appropriate season as possible.

Chalk Talk - Kids shouldn't play hockey to simply make a high school team someday - they should play hockey because its fun. Believe it or not, kids have the most fun playing against kids of their own talent level and by being challenged.

That being said, why isn't developing as many kids as possible as best as possible the best goal for those who love HS hockey in MN???

Concerned Hockey Coach · Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:35 pm

Chalk_Talk wrote:
BadgerBob82 wrote:I can't speak for what is right for Mankato.

I will ask you a question. Was it right for LuVerne to jump from D4 and play in D9 as a guest, only to be back in D4 for playoffs? They are a solid D9 team and likely skewed the standings for the teams in the West?
No I don't think it was right for Luverne to Jump ship and play dist 9. They should have played a district 9 and district 4 schedule. There are only two other teams in distr 4.

Who are you to decide if its "right" or not???

Who cares???? Let the kids have fun and play hockey. The important thing is making sure they are challenged and playing the right level...

No one has fun beating teams 5-0 or losing 0-5... Get off your soapbox and come down to the real world.

Chalk_Talk · Post by **Chalk_Talk** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:36 pm

Concerned Hockey Coach wrote:It really bothers me as a coach to hear people try to demonize Rochester Red for doing what's best for its players and the association.

We should be applauding Rochester for raising its B1 teams to A and competing in D9, knowing that Rochester Red would trounce the other two A2 teams in the playoffs... Many associations would not have been so bold and would have worried about having more than 1 unequal A team at the PeeWee A level.

Now I know that this wouldn't work if D9 were D8 since Rochester's two A2 teams are not PeeWee A level teams, but rather B1 teams in that district.

But kudos to Rochester for giving as many of its kids as possible as challenging and developmentally appropriate season as possible.

Chalk Talk - Kids shouldn't play hockey to simply make a high school team someday - they should play hockey because its fun. Believe it or not, kids have the most fun playing against kids of their own talent level and by being challenged.

That being said, why isn't developing as many kids as possible as best as possible the best goal for those who love HS hockey in MN???

Kudos to Roch for being selfish, Mankato went lost 1 game all year in bantam A and B and Pee Wee A and B. So you are saying that Kato assocation should do what Roch did and Leave cause we are TOOO dam good

Concerned Hockey Coach · Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:50 pm

Chalk_Talk wrote:
Kudos to Roch for being selfish, Mankato went lost 1 game all year in bantam A and B and Pee Wee A and B. So you are saying that Kato assocation should do what Roch did and Leave cause we are TOOO dam good

So you're from Mankato ("we")... Well I'm not from Rochester so its not personal to me... BUT to answer your question, if the Mankato Hockey Ass'n believes it is best for it to raise its B1 teams to the A level and do what Rochester has done, then who am I to criticize? Just like who are you to criticize Rochester.

What's wrong with an association being selfish and looking after its own players? Does your home ass'n, Mankato, owe Rochester a duty to look after it?

C'mon... think about what you're saying! I'm sure you don't mean it, but you're putting your anger toward Rochester's usual dominance and perception as a bunch of Dr's sons and daughters toward youth hockey... silly.

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:57 pm

Coach: Kudos to Rochester given the situation they were in. But, if all of D9 would understand they are in fact B1 level teams compared to the majority of MN, then the only A teams would be Mankato, Rochester Red and maybe Owatonna. The rest of the associations should have played at the B1 level. The D9 B level should have been clasified as B2's. Then, all would have been played the same teams in District play AND when going to play tournament with the rest of the world, would have been competitive at the B1 level. The teams leaving D9 in 1-3 place, would have a reasonable chance of advancing to the State Tournament at the B1 level.

Chalk_Talk · Post by **Chalk_Talk** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:01 pm

Concerned Hockey Coach wrote:
Chalk_Talk wrote:
Kudos to Roch for being selfish, Mankato went lost 1 game all year in bantam A and B and Pee Wee A and B. So you are saying that Kato assocation should do what Roch did and Leave cause we are TOOO dam good
So you're from Mankato ("we")... Well I'm not from Rochester so its not personal to me... BUT to answer your question, if the Mankato Hockey Ass'n believes it is best for it to raise its B1 teams to the A level and do what Rochester has done, then who am I to criticize? Just like who are you to criticize Rochester.

What's wrong with an association being selfish and looking after its own players? Does your home ass'n, Mankato, owe Rochester a duty to look after it?

C'mon... think about what you're saying! I'm sure you don't mean it, but you're putting your anger toward Rochester's usual dominance and perception as a bunch of Dr's sons and daughters toward youth hockey... silly.

I'm not trying to put Roch down. I just amazing that an assocation thinks it can do what ever it wants. Who do they think they are? What gives them the right to pick and choose? if they want to pick and choose they SHOULDN'T be elgible for playoff hockey. Usual dominance, like I said before, at the A levels they are have some competion. They are creating their own perception. Im just reading the wrinting on the walls!!!!

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:04 pm

Chalk: No 'kato didn't need to leave D9 cuz they are so darn good. But, understand they are playing against B1 level teams. I'm sure they find appropriate competition outside of league games with independent scheduling and tournaments.

As Coach said, it is hard for people outside an association to know what is best for their membership. And, I imagine there could even be conflicting opinions within an association as to what is the right thing to do.

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:09 pm

Chalk: Next year, have D9 REQUIRE Rochester Red to play all D9 league games. And require Rochester to move their current A teams to the B level. Then require D9 to form B2 and C leagues. And Girls 10-14 leagues at the A and B levels. In other words, let's get D9 to look like D8, or D6, or D3, etc...

Chalk_Talk · Post by **Chalk_Talk** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:11 pm

BadgerBob82 wrote:Chalk: No 'kato didn't need to leave D9 cuz they are so darn good. But, understand they are playing against B1 level teams. I'm sure they find appropriate competition outside of league games with independent scheduling and tournaments.

As Coach said, it is hard for people outside an association to know what is best for their membership. And, I imagine there could even be conflicting opinions within an association as to what is the right thing to do.

Why did they leave if they didn't think they were so good?

"Our A players are don't get better against 9 teams so we will take our A kids some where else, you can play out B kids.

Concerned Hockey Coach · Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:11 pm

Chalk_Talk wrote:
I'm not trying to put Roch down. I just amazing that an assocation thinks it can do what ever it wants. Who do they think they are? What gives them the right to pick and choose? if they want to pick and choose they SHOULDN'T be elgible for playoff hockey. Usual dominance, like I said before, at the A levels they are have some competion. They are creating their own perception. Im just reading the wrinting on the walls!!!!

They call the shots right now for the most part because they are far and away the LARGEST association. They have 8 teams at PeeWees including 2 A teams, 12 teams at squirts.

Also, over the last two years (not counting this year), they only played D9 teams 7 times ( 2010 - Luverne 10-0, Albert Lea 12-0, Mankato 5-0 (they were 31-4-6 and lost in the finals of regionals to go to state to EP) (2009 - Red Wing 5-1, Owatonna 3-2, Owatonna 7-2, Red Wing 7-0).

They don't want to play this type of competition on a yearly basis SOLELY because one year like this year, one team in D9 is capable of giving them a good game.

Chalk_Talk · Post by **Chalk_Talk** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:13 pm

Concerned Hockey Coach wrote:
Chalk_Talk wrote:
BadgerBob82 wrote:I can't speak for what is right for Mankato.

I will ask you a question. Was it right for LuVerne to jump from D4 and play in D9 as a guest, only to be back in D4 for playoffs? They are a solid D9 team and likely skewed the standings for the teams in the West?
No I don't think it was right for Luverne to Jump ship and play dist 9. They should have played a district 9 and district 4 schedule. There are only two other teams in distr 4.
Who are you to decide if its "right" or not???

Who cares???? Let the kids have fun and play hockey. The important thing is making sure they are challenged and playing the right level...

No one has fun beating teams 5-0 or losing 0-5... Get off your soapbox and come down to the real world.

He asked me (also known as I a question)

How should have "I" responded

Concerned Hockey Coach · Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:13 pm

Chalk_Talk wrote:
"Our A players are don't get better against 9 teams so we will take our A kids some where else, you can play out B kids.

What's wrong with this Chalk? Why the hatred?

Concerned Hockey Coach · Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:15 pm

Chalk_Talk wrote:
He asked me (also known as I a question)

How should have "I" responded

You said you didn't think it was "right"... which implies morality... and I'm saying who are you to speak about Rochester or Luverne's decisions in these terms?

Why can't associations decide for themselves what's best for their associations?

Chalk_Talk · Post by **Chalk_Talk** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:19 pm

Concerned Hockey Coach wrote:
Chalk_Talk wrote:
He asked me (also known as I a question)

How should have "I" responded
You said you didn't think it was "right"... which implies morality... and I'm saying who are you to speak about Rochester or Luverne's decisions in these terms?

Why can't associations decide for themselves what's best for their associations?

My opinion I don't think it was the appropiate thing to do. Better??
In my opinion don't think it was appropiate becuase we now have special rules for special associations!

Concerned Hockey Coach · Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:20 pm

I just checked Mankato's schedule... they are 26-5-2. They have not played anyone in the top 40 teams.

They beat Rochester Gold 12-0 and Rochester Black 13-2, as well as other blowouts against them. They beat Rochester Red at least twice, but they have lost to Sibley and Eastview, both average teams at PeeWee A at best.

Mankato is competitive, they have not even attempted to play a top 40 team. If I was in Mankato, I'd be demanding change.

Chalk_Talk · Post by **Chalk_Talk** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:39 pm

Concerned Hockey Coach wrote:I just checked Mankato's schedule... they are 26-5-2. They have not played anyone in the top 40 teams.

They beat Rochester Gold 12-0 and Rochester Black 13-2, as well as other blowouts against them. They beat Rochester Red at least twice, but they have lost to Sibley and Eastview, both average teams at PeeWee A at best.

Mankato is competitive, they have not even attempted to play a top 40 team. If I was in Mankato, I'd be demanding change.

See why it is a sore subject, thanks for the great conversation CC

Concerned Hockey Coach · Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:40 pm

You too... good luck in 'kato making things happen for your hockey players. Keep up the good fight!