Is Rochester Red the 12th team in the D9 Peewee A playoffs?

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

I'm sorry for those of you who view making regionals more important than player development, but as a coach, its not about regionals or districts or anything other than developing your kids. Teams that get creative and do that shouldn't be barred from districts if the rest of the District goes along with it.


IT AINT ABOUT DEVELOPMENT with you if it was you would play your super schedule and step aside why do you have to go to Regionals if that is not what it is about? Again special people looking for special favors...

What is this about "me"??? Why do you think Rochester Red should be punished and not allowed in the District tournament just because they obtained the green light from D9 to have an independent schedule?

What special favor is it? What team or association has been hurt by D9's creative decision to get kids playing against their own talent level for the district games during the season?

[Mnhockeys]

BUT if Rochester Red makes it to Regionals and then beats a team at Regionals, you think that beaten team has a leg to stand on if they complain?[/quote]
Talking about arrogance!!!!

What about your Red got beaten in the playoff, not even in the regional?

That was about a different point when Fred was talking about grievances.

I'm NOT from Rochester, read my other posts please and do not cherrypick.

Ok, let us see. Fred started to question this D9 and Roch Red's playoff schedule, some1 jumped on him right away, some1 put most posts in this thread attacked Fred's every points, although few got any kind of response from Fred. Fred's point is that the whole thing is unfair and "stinks", which he never states that rules were broken. Being the most ferious defender against Fred's points, can you explain the whole thing is NOT unfair and stinks for other D9 teams?

Your above quote was on the exact subject, which made us speechless to read something like that.

Sure you will enjoy your cities team got knocked out by your Roch Red in playoff or regionals. Let us all play independent schedules next year, which can be advantage for any team - "strong" or weak!

[frederick61]

Concerned Hockey Coach asked the question; "What special favor is it? What team or association has been hurt by D9's creative decision to get kids playing against their own talent level for the district games during the season?"

It hurts all of Minnesota Hockey. The one thing that Minnesota Hockey has to protect is their integrity. That is all important because people will believe they are being treated fairly. In the end, that is what parents and kids want most, a fair chance.

Specifically, it will hurt Mankato, Owatonna, or Northfield. One of those teams will not make the regional. The Red will take their place.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

If the level of competition was such an issue, why does the Rochester Red want to play the same D9 teams in a tourney now? The D9 playoffs mean more to the 150 kids playing on those teams then it does to the 17 Rochester kids and their parents.

Obviously, the Red had disdain for those eleven teams (two of which are teams in their own association) last fall when they said to the 11 teams in effect "we are better then you and we need to develop by playing better teams".

The fact that the Red denied 11 D9 teams the opportunity to improve themselves by playing a better team (the Red) never occurred to the Rochester people involved. It is called being selfish.

Is that the teaching moment that the Red adults involved in the program want to pass on to their kids. We are better and we can break the rules and we can get away with it.

And as far as spurring interest in the sport that cost significant money in places like Austin, Albert Lea, and New Ulm, it doesn't. It leaves a bad taste in the mouths of those parents, kids, and coaches by demonstrating the rules to not apply to Rochester.

This was the post that started my disdain for Fred's assumptions. Go ahead and check before it, my post before this post (page 1) recognized that Rochester should not have been able to re-write rules... but then after this post it was pointed out on numerous occasions [without objection from Fred] that no rules had been broken.

Frederick - none of the teams you just posted is entitled to regionals. I'm sorry that you may not like D9's decision in this matter, but I think most people in MN will not feel MN hockey's integrity has been jeapardized because one of those teams you mentioned doesn't make it to regionals.

Again, Rochester, and any other association considering an independent schedule if you are forced to play against teams not of your caliber by MN hockey districting - please continue to offer your players the means to be challenged, and please do not take a back seat to those who feel it is "impure" to Minnesota hockey to do so when it comes to fighting for your players ability to take part in Minnesota's playoff system which is designed to showcase MN talent and competition and reward the best teams, not the teams that "work really hard".

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

Thanks to all who partaked in this discussion. I think the greatest divide here is not necessarily over Rochester Red playing or not playing. I assume no one would want to take the opportunity to play away from the kids on that team.

My passion comes from my worry that MN hockey is about to be runneth over in the coming years by AAA hockey. I have a daughter who is less than one year old and hope to have sons in the game as well. I hope MN hockey provides all kids with the program to challenge and develop players without having to go to AAA, which will undoubtedly begin when the best players (ok, the best players' parents!) decide that MN hockey is not serving their needs. (Think HS kids leaving for juniors! Which MN hockey responded to with elite level leagues and more games etc and most recently allowing single A schools to declare up as AA for only two years rather than four as before)

Rochester's elite players will not sit idly by and be forced into playing 10+ pointless games against teams that Rochester's B1 teams can beat (see what happened this year with Black and Gold)

Rochester and D9 responded creatively and the system is working despite the fact that yes, either Owatonna, Mankato or Northfield will NOT go to Regionals this year.

BUT so won't TWO of the following teams from D6: Edina, EP, MTKA, Burnsville and Prior Lake.

Nothing criminal has happened here folks... just associations taking care of their kids interests. We could all be so lucky.

Thanks for the good times and creating a forum that syncs perfectly with expressly my fear of AAA and how MN hockey will hopefully stay flexible and creative to combat it!

Go MN!

[observer]

And, only two teams at each level from D3 this year.

Maybe a single game vs. each D9 opponent? Other youth organizations have done that as well as a few high school teams. It can be important for the other A teams in D9 to face that level of competition (Rochester Red) so they know how far they have to go to be considered a "true" A level team. Preparing for that game is different than the others.

[Mnhockeys]

BUT if Rochester Red makes it to Regionals and then beats a team at Regionals, you think that beaten team has a leg to stand on if they complain?[/quote]


That was about a different point when Fred was talking about grievances.

I'm NOT from Rochester, read my other posts please and do not cherrypick.

I vote your quote as quote of forum!

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

And, only two teams at each level from D3 this year.

Maybe a single game vs. each D9 opponent? Other youth organizations have done that as well as a few high school teams. It can be important for the other A teams in D9 to face that level of competition (Rochester Red) so they know how far they have to go to be considered a "true" A level team. Preparing for that game is different than the others.

Creativity! The only issue I could see is that there were 12 A teams in D9, two of which were Rochester A2's, which most associations do not enjoy pitting against their A1 team.

The other problem is that the hour plus drives involved for these games must get annoying if the result is going to be 6-0 or worse.

Tough decisions and I'll just say good luck D9 and hopefully all the associations speak their mind and the best result determined by all working together to further their individual interests as best as possible.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

BUT if Rochester Red makes it to Regionals and then beats a team at Regionals, you think that beaten team has a leg to stand on if they complain?[/quote]


That was about a different point when Fred was talking about grievances.

I'm NOT from Rochester, read my other posts please and do not cherrypick.

I vote your quote as quote of forum!

Can you at least answer my question? If you were a parent on a team that loses to Roch Red at regionals (D4 teams for example, Luverne etc) would you feel like you were "gipped", and if so, do you think that's a legitimate complaint?

[dogeatdog1]

Thanks to all who partaked in this discussion. I think the greatest divide here is not necessarily over Rochester Red playing or not playing. I assume no one would want to take the opportunity to play away from the kids on that team.

My passion comes from my worry that MN hockey is about to be runneth over in the coming years by AAA hockey. I have a daughter who is less than one year old and hope to have sons in the game as well. I hope MN hockey provides all kids with the program to challenge and develop players without having to go to AAA, which will undoubtedly begin when the best players (ok, the best players' parents!) decide that MN hockey is not serving their needs. (Think HS kids leaving for juniors! Which MN hockey responded to with elite level leagues and more games etc and most recently allowing single A schools to declare up as AA for only two years rather than four as before)

Rochester's elite players will not sit idly by and be forced into playing 10+ pointless games against teams that Rochester's B1 teams can beat (see what happened this year with Black and Gold)

Rochester and D9 responded creatively and the system is working despite the fact that yes, either Owatonna, Mankato or Northfield will NOT go to Regionals this year.

BUT so won't TWO of the following teams from D6: Edina, EP, MTKA, Burnsville and Prior Lake.

Nothing criminal has happened here folks... just associations taking care of their kids interests. We could all be so lucky.

Thanks for the good times and creating a forum that syncs perfectly with expressly my fear of AAA and how MN hockey will hopefully stay flexible and creative to combat it!

Go MN!

One more question before I go coach hockey tonight and something to ponder over the weekend. Who decides that a team is too good to play in a certain district and that it is not in the best interest of a super group of kids to play a lesser talented team? Is it the coach who's kid will have to score 5 goals in a meaningless game or should it be the district trying to create a place for MN kids to play and develop in a great sport. I was at Dakotah arena last night watching Prior Lake/ Minnetonka Peewee game and on the other rink Burnsville bantams were playing Shakopee so I peeked in. 10-0 half way through the first period. Question should be why doesn't MN hockey and District 6 trust an assciation to do what is right for that team and allow them to play at the right level? Not play an independent schedule as every year you would have one or two teams opting in or out. You need consistency in running a league and not allow rogue people threatening you that they might opt out scare you into thinking that AAA is going to run rampant over MN hockey. To the contrary the example above shows that teams can develop even if they have to play some patsy's every once and a while. Your daughter and future son if you have one will have a great place to play if MN Hockey stays strong to their values. If not get your checkbook out because the alternative everywhere else costs a whole lot more and the product isn't any better.

[frederick61]

I believe the grievance has to be filed so that Minnesota Hockey can make a ruling. Remember, Minnesota Hockey regulates more then peewee A hockey. At times some districts will marry their leagues at a level for a year or so because of numbers.

An example is the D3 U12A league which has D3 and D5 teams. Often the hybrid league will play their own "district playoff". The D3 league is called League 3 and League 3 will send teams to a regional play down. All this is coordinated by Minnesota Hockey. This is done to allow an area where a particular level of players and teams is down to participate. An area in this case means more then one district.

In general, Minnesota Hockey lets the District Directors work out what they want because the eligibility issue varies from level of play to level of play based on numbers. I have been told in the past that it is their policy to handle issues of eligibility via grievance.

A grievance can be filed a single person who is involved. Unfortunately, associations and people involved in D9 had only four days to file such a grievance because of the manner in which D9 handled the insertion of the Rochester Red into the D9 tourney.

The next logical candidate to file a grievance is D8 or those participating in the South Regional. The one filing the grievance would simple ask the Red to be declared ineligible because they did not play a D9 regular season schedule. The Red were offered the opportunity to play a D9 schedule, but turned it down.

Minnesota Hockey can then decide the matter.

Part of this whole discussion has focused on teams should not be forced to beat other teams 10+ in pointless games. By my count, Edina had seven such victories over D6 teams this year including two over Jefferson. Do you think the Hornet leaders believe that Jefferson is a B1 team?

[dogeatdog1]

I believe the grievance has to be filed so that Minnesota Hockey can make a ruling. Remember, Minnesota Hockey regulates more then peewee A hockey. At times some districts will marry their leagues at a level for a year or so because of numbers.

An example is the D3 U12A league which has D3 and D5 teams. Often the hybrid league will play their own "district playoff". The D3 league is called League 3 and League 3 will send teams to a regional play down. All this is coordinated by Minnesota Hockey. This is done to allow an area where a particular level of players and teams is down to participate. An area in this case means more then one district.

In general, Minnesota Hockey lets the District Directors work out what they want because the eligibility issue varies from level of play to level of play based on numbers. I have been told in the past that it is their policy to handle issues of eligibility via grievance.

A grievance can be filed a single person who is involved. Unfortunately, associations and people involved in D9 had only four days to file such a grievance because of the manner in which D9 handled the insertion of the Rochester Red into the D9 tourney.

The next logical candidate to file a grievance is D8 or those participating in the South Regional. The one filing the grievance would simple ask the Red to be declared ineligible because they did not play a D9 regular season schedule. The Red were offered the opportunity to play a D9 schedule, but turned it down.

Minnesota Hockey can then decide the matter.

Part of this whole discussion has focused on teams should not be forced to beat other teams 10+ in pointless games. By my count, Edina had seven such victories over D6 teams this year including two over Jefferson. Do you think the Hornet leaders believe that Jefferson is a B1 team?

AMEN!

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

One more question before I go coach hockey tonight and something to ponder over the weekend. Who decides that a team is too good to play in a certain district and that it is not in the best interest of a super group of kids to play a lesser talented team? Is it the coach who's kid will have to score 5 goals in a meaningless game or should it be the district trying to create a place for MN kids to play and develop in a great sport.

The association should, absolutely. BUT they have to do it within the confines of the district they are in IF they are going to come back after the regular season and participate in the district tournament. So let the association decide and then let the district ok it. Just like what happened here.

I was at Dakotah arena last night watching Prior Lake/ Minnetonka Peewee game and on the other rink Burnsville bantams were playing Shakopee so I peeked in. 10-0 half way through the first period. Question should be why doesn't MN hockey and District 6 trust an assciation to do what is right for that team and allow them to play at the right level?

I think they do. The associations decide, unless I'm wrong and D6 is different, how many teams they have at what level. No one is forced to have an A team.

Not play an independent schedule as every year you would have one or two teams opting in or out. You need consistency in running a league and not allow rogue people threatening you that they might opt out scare you into thinking that AAA is going to run rampant over MN hockey. To the contrary the example above shows that teams can develop even if they have to play some patsy's every once and a while.

What example? I missed that. It's not "every once in a while" if you're out state and forced to play 10+ games like that where you have to drive an hour plus... Certainly geography and such play a role.

Your daughter and future son if you have one will have a great place to play if MN Hockey stays strong to their values. If not get your checkbook out because the alternative everywhere else costs a whole lot more and the product isn't any better.

"Values?" Blowouts? Rochester's best A team being forced by MN hockey to play B1 teams?

If those are our values, I want out.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

I believe the grievance has to be filed so that Minnesota Hockey can make a ruling. Remember, Minnesota Hockey regulates more then peewee A hockey. At times some districts will marry their leagues at a level for a year or so because of numbers.

An example is the D3 U12A league which has D3 and D5 teams. Often the hybrid league will play their own "district playoff". The D3 league is called League 3 and League 3 will send teams to a regional play down. All this is coordinated by Minnesota Hockey. This is done to allow an area where a particular level of players and teams is down to participate. An area in this case means more then one district.

In general, Minnesota Hockey lets the District Directors work out what they want because the eligibility issue varies from level of play to level of play based on numbers. I have been told in the past that it is their policy to handle issues of eligibility via grievance.

A grievance can be filed a single person who is involved. Unfortunately, associations and people involved in D9 had only four days to file such a grievance because of the manner in which D9 handled the insertion of the Rochester Red into the D9 tourney.

The next logical candidate to file a grievance is D8 or those participating in the South Regional. The one filing the grievance would simple ask the Red to be declared ineligible because they did not play a D9 regular season schedule. The Red were offered the opportunity to play a D9 schedule, but turned it down.

Minnesota Hockey can then decide the matter.

Part of this whole discussion has focused on teams should not be forced to beat other teams 10+ in pointless games. By my count, Edina had seven such victories over D6 teams this year including two over Jefferson. Do you think the Hornet leaders believe that Jefferson is a B1 team?

Good lord Freddie, we're talking about 10 or 11/12 District games being blowouts in D9 versus 2 out of 12 for D6... good lord.

Please explain the rule that was broken which could be appealed as a grievance?

Thanks.

[observer]

12 A teams in D9, two of which were Rochester A2's

So, 10 games out of 40 in the District you belong to and should be supportive of. Or play the 4-5 teams that would like the test. You do owe that to them. I'm surprised you didn't run into some of them at a tournament anyways.

There's various levels of selfishness and sounds like Rochester Red is paticularily selfish.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

12 A teams in D9, two of which were Rochester A2's

So, 10 games out of 40 in the District you belong to and should be supportive of. Or play the 4-5 teams that would like the test. You ndo owe to them. I'm surprised you didn't run into some of them at a tournament anyways.

There's various levels of selfishness and sounds like Rochester Red is paticularily selfish.

I'm not with Rochester... for the thousandth time. I coach a team in the cities area.

I highly doubt Rochester is more selfish than any other organization.

Can you imagine an Edina or EP level talent (which Rochester is not always, but which it is close to and competitive with each year) playing in D9 and agreeing to it?

Please recognize that Rochester is in a unique spot and far away from any equal in talent.

[observer]

I highly doubt Rochester is more selfish than any other organization.

They are and this discussion proves it.

Can you imagine an Edina or EP level talent (which Rochester is not always, but which it is close to and competitive with each year) playing in D9 and agreeing to it?

Hello, Edina and EP are members of District 6 and Rochester Red is a member of D9. Member is a key word there.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

I highly doubt Rochester is more selfish than any other organization.

They are and this discussion proves it.

Can you imagine an Edina or EP level talent (which Rochester is not always, but which it is close to and competitive with each year) playing in D9 and agreeing to it?

Hello, Edina and EP belong to District 6 and Rochester Red belongs to D9.

Wow, ok. Do you think that IF Edina or EP belonged to D9, they would agree to play all those other teams or would they do what Rochester would do?

I think I made my point...

[frederick61]

Let me re-state a point. Edina played 16 D6 games so far this year. Out of those 16 games, 7 games were won by scores approximating 10+ goals. Included in those 7 games were two wins over Jefferson (10-0 and 8-0). So should Edina consider Jefferson a B1 team and not worthy of playing? No because in two years, the Jags could beat the Hornets 10-0. That is peewee A hockey.

If the Rochester Red played a 14 game East Division schedule, including 2 or 4 games against the Rochester Gold and the Rochester Black, would they win all 14 games by that 10+ goal or would they win half of the games by that score. If they won half by that score, they would match Edina.

I doubt that the D6 schedule has slowed the Edina kids development.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

Let me re-state a point. Edina played 16 D6 games so far this year. Out of those 16 games, 7 games were won by scores approximating 10+ goals. Included in those 7 games were two wins over Jefferson (10-0 and 8-0). So should Edina consider Jefferson a B1 team and not worthy of playing? No because in two years, the Jags could beat the Hornets 10-0. That is peewee A hockey.

If the Rochester Red played a 14 game East Division schedule, including 2 or 4 games against the Rochester Gold and the Rochester Black, would they win all 14 games by that 10+ goal or would they win half of the games by that score. If they won half by that score, they would match Edina.

I doubt that the D6 schedule has slowed the Edina kids development.

Frederick61 the blogger of PeeWee A hockey, Edina has beaten Lakeville S. (a top 25 team) 10-3, WBL (a top 30 team and your 2nd or 3rd team in District 2) 10-0, Blaine 11-1... and on and on. Who are they going to play? Just Farmington (well after they find out Farmington is good enough) EP, Wayzata... etc. You can't pick this year's BEST team and cherry pick.

You know as well as everyone in this forum that D9 is not made up of even average PeeWee A teams. Take your beloved Northfield for example who is the leader of D9 East:

Ranked 78th by myhockey.

They lost to Owatonna 1-11
They lost to Faribault 2-3
They lost to Rochester Black 2-3 and 2-4
They lost to Johnson Como 2-4

Now, this isn't to say that Northfield isn't having a good year. They probably are thriving playing teams of their talent level. But to say that Rochester Red's not wanting to play in a District's regular season games where Northfield is in first place of its division...

Let's just say even you can't say its the same as Edina.

Jefferson beat Owatonna 5-0 who beat Northfield 11-1 and 4-1.

C'mon Freddie

[observer]

I think I made my point...

No you didn't because they don't.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

No you didn't because they don't.

I didn't what and who don't????

Ok, I notice your edit and that you left the quote.

Good one! Notice you still haven't answered my hypo!

[observer]

I think what we've learned is you're a young coach without a lot of experience with how things work. And, you're really not even part of the discussion.

My friend, life is about serving others. What can I do for my neighbor. Not, what can I do for myself.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

I think what we've learned is you're a young coach without a lot of experience with how things work. And, you're really not even part of the discussion.

My friend, life is about serving others. What can I do for my neighbor. Not, what can I do for myself.

"I'm a better coach than you".... says the old man who tells a "young coach" [is mid 30's young??? I like thinking it is.] who then attempts to moralize him about how life is serving others...

P.S. Deciding issues like player development is all about serving your neighbor hmmm? Interesting idea... how do you implement such a system? Does your team travel down to Rochester each year to make sure they get some good neighborly competition?

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

Btw... I hate to criticize Observer... he has lots to add and I agree with him very often.

Just as an example, this is a great post from him and I support him 100%.

For me the answer to all of this is recruiting. Time and effort much better spent expanding the game.

Most organizations currently do very little to set and achieve recruiting goals each year. Kids used to just sign up. But now with more options than ever for ways for families to spend their time it's not just a given that they'll sign junior, or missy, up for hockey.

Better numbers grow revenue, provide more and better volunteers and potentially even allow for both checking and non-checking teams and leagues.

The idea to pause checking until bantam is an extremely bad idea that 99% of membership, from what we've seen here, oppose. Frankly, it makes absolutely no sense at all. None.

Focus your energy on how to grow and improve the game. The revenue piece is extremely important and a number of organizations from community based associations to Minnesota Hockey to USA Hockey have done a poor job of it for the most part.

Checking, and slap shots for that matter, should be taught at the Squirt level, 2nd year if you like, so when a kid plays his first PeeWee game he's comfortable as can be instead of afraid. Those that play summer hockey will be checking before they even attend their first fall association PeeWee practice so all the more reason to prepare them, with good instruction, before they come into PeeWee tryouts and the 2nd year kids love to cream a few of the first years. For some reason a lot of players love to blow up their own friends and team mates more than the opposition.

So, get your recruiting committee together now and set a goal for how many new Mites you hope to attract, boys and girls, between now and October.

Please don't be lazy on this leadership. Give your member organizations the tools they need to grow the game. Your future being involved in hockey depends on it. More members give you everything you need.