Quasar wrote:I think that everyone here should take a deep breath... Fred has stated he has been around Minnesota hockey since the 50's. So have I. One of the things about people our age is that we have reached the age of plain talk.
The situation in Dist 9 is what it is for many reasons.. But on the base level it stinks... Too bad most people today can't distinguish a strong opinion based on years of observation from a personal attack.
If most of the posters to this thread put in as much time and passion as Fred (Whom I don't know from Adam),does hockey as whole would be a lot better.
To the concerned hockey coach...You better grow up...........
Ok. Just so I'm squared away, can you tell me how its grown up to accuse a team of 12 and 13 year olds of breaking the rules and BEGGING someone to file a "grievance" so that the kids on Rochester Red's season was over?
Please wake up MN hockey to the reality that unless we stay vigilant toward giving ALL of MN (SE and SW included) a place to play competitive hockey... AAA will seep in and slowly take it over...
Great job D9 for creatively addressing a problem that made no one a victim and resulted in everyone getting better (and believe it or not they probably had fun too!)
It is not grown up to accuse 12-14 year old kids of breaking the rules. They are innocent of any wrong doing. They just want to play hockey.
However, they trust their adult leaders to do the right thing and believe in them today. The leadership at Rochester and the leadership at D9 did not do the right thing.
Now, to me, it is like the kid outside the ballpark, "say it aint so, Joe".
Not understanding what the big deal is with the seeding. D9 said from the beginning they'd be allowed to play. After looking at their website, they've played a few top 20 teams and at least early on in the year (they didn't post anything after Nov) Rochester Red wasn't close to any of the teams they played. They are not ranked in the top 20, nor is any other D9 team. So if they are so good that they are taking a region chance away from another D9 team, yet they are not even in the top 20 teams in the state, what do you think would/will happen to any D9 team that makes regions...
Should the real question be, why is D9 taking 2 regional spots away from D6, D8, D3 or D10 teams that might actually have a chance at winning state?
D6, D8, D3 or D10 do not complain that D9 gets 2 regional qualifiers and takes up spots that could be filled by top teams that find themselves in tough districts, stop complaining about Rochester Red taking a spot of a team that has little chance at advancing at the A level in the first place.
If you want to be the best you should want to play the best, first game or last, doesn't matter.
Quasar wrote:I think that everyone here should take a deep breath... Fred has stated he has been around Minnesota hockey since the 50's. So have I. One of the things about people our age is that we have reached the age of plain talk.
The situation in Dist 9 is what it is for many reasons.. But on the base level it stinks... Too bad most people today can't distinguish a strong opinion based on years of observation from a personal attack.
If most of the posters to this thread put in as much time and passion as Fred (Whom I don't know from Adam),does hockey as whole would be a lot better.
To the concerned hockey coach...You better grow up...........
Ok. Just so I'm squared away, can you tell me how its grown up to accuse a team of 12 and 13 year olds of breaking the rules and BEGGING someone to file a "grievance" so that the kids on Rochester Red's season was over?
Please wake up MN hockey to the reality that unless we stay vigilant toward giving ALL of MN (SE and SW included) a place to play competitive hockey... AAA will seep in and slowly take it over...
Great job D9 for creatively addressing a problem that made no one a victim and resulted in everyone getting better (and believe it or not they probably had fun too!)
Outside like me are concerned/interested in this because one could see how the association landscape could be changed forever started by a few assoc. playing independent schedules while still retaining the rights to play in regional and state tournaments. What would happen to those smaller association who aren't deemed "good enough" ? could they ever get "good enough" without the opportunity to play higher caliber teams regularly ? Its not an easy dilema
CHC....
I was not talking about kids.. I was talking about your ranting against Fredrick.. You seem to be knowledgeable about hockey.. Make your points using facts that you know... Personal attacks are a sign of immaturity..
You should get to know a few people in summer AAA ..
It is not the demon you seem to think... In fact it is the road to "development" for many..
I'm sure you are just a guy with a lot of passion...Kinda like me a few years ago.
From an old coach to a new one... Everything from the old days is not bad.. In fact you would be surprised how many things have not changed at all!!
If I might add a bit of clarity here. Frederick does not know a thing he is talking about. I am the president of D9 and serve with many volunteers who have done an outstanding job in it's first year of existence. Rochester has one vote on our board, out of 14 votes. The board voted early on to allow this year's Rochester Red PeeWee A and Bantam A teams to not play in the league while they pursue an independent game schedule. While many would prefer they play in the league, I think many felt the district needed to see how this worked out for this year. Will things be discussed this spring and summer? I would think so.
About the playoffs. Out of 67 teams that compete in MH leagues in District 9, 7 didn't make the playoffs. Those seven teams had a combined 4 league wins among them. I think the the district did an outstanding job of providing playoff potential for over 80 percent of the teams in the District. In District 11, the only other district with as many associations than District 9, 8 out of 12 PeeWee A teams made any district playoff. That's 66%. In District 9, I think that most board members would like to include as many teams as possible in the playoff structure. Time constraints forbid a district with up to 15 teams in a league to have play downs to a an eight team bracket.
As we, as a district, move forward our goal will be to foster an environment for all youth hockey players to play the game they love and have fun at it. We will also do everything we can to help the game grow and develop in our region.
I think you mean District 10. DistrIct 11 is mostly duluth and Silver Bay.
Dist. 10 has a straight forward 8 team playoff. top 8 seeds based on playing all the teams in their district throughout the season go to the play offs.
seems to work for them. Maybe you should give it some consideration.
Since we're discussing District 10, could you imagine if Champlin Park or Anoka played an independent schedule and then was allowed to play in the District 10 playoffs? I am certain that teams like Irondale would cry foul. While this exception may have been passed by the District 9 board with the best of intentions, it creates the opportunity for fraud, favoritism and improvidence, which is not a good thing. Rochester Red was given an unearned advantage over other teams in the District. I believe in a system based on meritocracy, which does not include giving a team a special pass to the District playoffs, even if you believe in good faith that the team would have been one of the top teams in the District had they played a league schedule. The fact is we will never know because they did not play a league schedule, which means they are not part of the league, which, in turn, means they should not be allowed to play in the league (District) playoffs.
This vote by the District board was not in the best interests of all the young athletes in the District, nor is it fair to the rest of the teams and the young players on those teams who earned their respective league play wins to qualify for the District playoffs. It's kind of like allowing a kid to show up for school on the last week of his senior year and compete for the right to be called class valedictorian based on one set of final exams.
hockey_is_a_choice wrote:Since we're discussing District 10, could you imagine if Champlin Park or Anoka played an independent schedule and then was allowed to play in the District 10 playoffs? I am certain that teams like Irondale would cry foul. While this exception may have been passed by the District 9 board with the best of intentions, it creates the opportunity for fraud, favoritism and improvidence, which is not a good thing. Rochester Red was given an unearned advantage over other teams in the District. I believe in a system based on meritocracy, which does not include giving a team a special pass to the District playoffs, even if you believe in good faith that the team would have been one of the top teams in the District had they played a league schedule. The fact is we will never know because they did not play a league schedule, which means they are not part of the league, which, in turn, means they should not be allowed to play in the league (District) playoffs.
This vote by the District board was not in the best interests of all the young athletes in the District, nor is it fair to the rest of the teams and the young players on those teams who earned their respective league play wins to qualify for the District playoffs. It's kind of like allowing a kid to show up for school on the last week of his senior year and compete for the right to be called class valedictorian based on one set of final exams.
I coached in D10 this year and there did not want my team to play 11 of the 15 games that were scheduled because my team would not be challenged, if we were allowed to play an independent schedule we would have developed much better players. I can only applaud the Rochester board and A Bantam/Peewee Red coaching staffs for pushing for this option down there. Yes they should be allowed to compete to be the bests team in the state and D9 said at the beginning for the year, d9 would be the place for them to start. No team gets anything out of beating a team 10-0 and no team that gets beat 10-0 gets anything out of it!
hockey_is_a_choice wrote:Since we're discussing District 10, could you imagine if Champlin Park or Anoka played an independent schedule and then was allowed to play in the District 10 playoffs? I am certain that teams like Irondale would cry foul. While this exception may have been passed by the District 9 board with the best of intentions, it creates the opportunity for fraud, favoritism and improvidence, which is not a good thing. Rochester Red was given an unearned advantage over other teams in the District. I believe in a system based on meritocracy, which does not include giving a team a special pass to the District playoffs, even if you believe in good faith that the team would have been one of the top teams in the District had they played a league schedule. The fact is we will never know because they did not play a league schedule, which means they are not part of the league, which, in turn, means they should not be allowed to play in the league (District) playoffs.
This vote by the District board was not in the best interests of all the young athletes in the District, nor is it fair to the rest of the teams and the young players on those teams who earned their respective league play wins to qualify for the District playoffs. It's kind of like allowing a kid to show up for school on the last week of his senior year and compete for the right to be called class valedictorian based on one set of final exams.
I coached in D10 this year and there did not want my team to play 11 of the 15 games that were scheduled because my team would not be challenged, if we were allowed to play an independent schedule we would have developed much better players. I can only applaud the Rochester board and A Bantam/Peewee Red coaching staffs for pushing for this option down there. Yes they should be allowed to compete to be the bests team in the state and D9 said at the beginning for the year, d9 would be the place for them to start. No team gets anything out of beating a team 10-0 and no team that gets beat 10-0 gets anything out of it!
Wow..being that D10 is pretty much evenly matched with top teams going head to head...which super team are you coaching?? I must have missed something or you have a NHL rated team looking to join D9...please share...which 4 games gave your team a challenge? HIAC...right on....
hockey_is_a_choice wrote:Since we're discussing District 10, could you imagine if Champlin Park or Anoka played an independent schedule and then was allowed to play in the District 10 playoffs? I am certain that teams like Irondale would cry foul. While this exception may have been passed by the District 9 board with the best of intentions, it creates the opportunity for fraud, favoritism and improvidence, which is not a good thing. Rochester Red was given an unearned advantage over other teams in the District. I believe in a system based on meritocracy, which does not include giving a team a special pass to the District playoffs, even if you believe in good faith that the team would have been one of the top teams in the District had they played a league schedule. The fact is we will never know because they did not play a league schedule, which means they are not part of the league, which, in turn, means they should not be allowed to play in the league (District) playoffs.
This vote by the District board was not in the best interests of all the young athletes in the District, nor is it fair to the rest of the teams and the young players on those teams who earned their respective league play wins to qualify for the District playoffs. It's kind of like allowing a kid to show up for school on the last week of his senior year and compete for the right to be called class valedictorian based on one set of final exams.
I agree Choice. Let’s take it a little further. I believe District 9 opened up a door or two. My guess, a few associations (teams) in other districts next year will try to use the same arrangement as Rochester. I can just hear it now…they did it, why can’t we? Good luck with this one.
Hmmm . . . If you really are a District 10 coach and you coach a peewee A team, you are either an Elk River, a Centennial or a Blaine coach. I am confident you are not the head Centennial coach because he would not post such an arrogant statement, which leaves Elk River or Blaine. Both of those teams played numerous scrimmages against top 10 teams and played in highly competitive tournaments, which means neither team suffered because they were "forced" to play in District 10 league games. As Ugotta . . . accurately pointed out, on any given day in District 10, the top nine teams are capable of winning (or losing) in District 10 league play. The fact is our society is built on earning your way to the dance; simply because you arrogantly declare yourself the best doesn't mean you deserve to bow out of the hard work required to earn your "right" to play for a District championship. Either you're part of the District league or you're not; if you are, you play a league schedule and then you play the top teams in scrimmages and tournament games. If you're not, you don't play in District league games and you stay home during the District tournament because you didn't earn the right to play for the District championship.
This has been done before. This was something that we discussed with districts that had done this before. I can't speak for the board, but I believe the district will not allow this to get out of hand. I have heard talk that other associations said they could do the same thing as Rochester Red for next season. Remember, the district director has to approve this along with his board. It would be my belief that we will not let this snowball into a district that will allow any association to opt out of league play and still be eligible for playoffs. This year was a trial, of sorts. Rochester will continue to work with the district to do what is best for District 9. I believe that if the district requires the Red teams to participate in league play next year, they will do so.
See you all at the rink. Good luck to the playoff teams.
hockey_is_a_choice wrote:Since we're discussing District 10, could you imagine if Champlin Park or Anoka played an independent schedule and then was allowed to play in the District 10 playoffs? I am certain that teams like Irondale would cry foul. While this exception may have been passed by the District 9 board with the best of intentions, it creates the opportunity for fraud, favoritism and improvidence, which is not a good thing. Rochester Red was given an unearned advantage over other teams in the District. I believe in a system based on meritocracy, which does not include giving a team a special pass to the District playoffs, even if you believe in good faith that the team would have been one of the top teams in the District had they played a league schedule. The fact is we will never know because they did not play a league schedule, which means they are not part of the league, which, in turn, means they should not be allowed to play in the league (District) playoffs.
This vote by the District board was not in the best interests of all the young athletes in the District, nor is it fair to the rest of the teams and the young players on those teams who earned their respective league play wins to qualify for the District playoffs. It's kind of like allowing a kid to show up for school on the last week of his senior year and compete for the right to be called class valedictorian based on one set of final exams.
I coached in D10 this year and there did not want my team to play 11 of the 15 games that were scheduled because my team would not be challenged, if we were allowed to play an independent schedule we would have developed much better players. I can only applaud the Rochester board and A Bantam/Peewee Red coaching staffs for pushing for this option down there. Yes they should be allowed to compete to be the bests team in the state and D9 said at the beginning for the year, d9 would be the place for them to start. No team gets anything out of beating a team 10-0 and no team that gets beat 10-0 gets anything out of it!
When does D10 schedule the league games? During pre-season, right? How can you know your team can beat the rest of the league teams 10:0? Many people were saying Edina was the best PWA team ... think they are finishing 2nd in D6 this year. Edina could make the same better argument to play independent schedule and they did not!
hockey_is_a_choice wrote:Since we're discussing District 10, could you imagine if Champlin Park or Anoka played an independent schedule and then was allowed to play in the District 10 playoffs? I am certain that teams like Irondale would cry foul. While this exception may have been passed by the District 9 board with the best of intentions, it creates the opportunity for fraud, favoritism and improvidence, which is not a good thing. Rochester Red was given an unearned advantage over other teams in the District. I believe in a system based on meritocracy, which does not include giving a team a special pass to the District playoffs, even if you believe in good faith that the team would have been one of the top teams in the District had they played a league schedule. The fact is we will never know because they did not play a league schedule, which means they are not part of the league, which, in turn, means they should not be allowed to play in the league (District) playoffs.
This vote by the District board was not in the best interests of all the young athletes in the District, nor is it fair to the rest of the teams and the young players on those teams who earned their respective league play wins to qualify for the District playoffs. It's kind of like allowing a kid to show up for school on the last week of his senior year and compete for the right to be called class valedictorian based on one set of final exams.
I coached in D10 this year and there did not want my team to play 11 of the 15 games that were scheduled because my team would not be challenged, if we were allowed to play an independent schedule we would have developed much better players. I can only applaud the Rochester board and A Bantam/Peewee Red coaching staffs for pushing for this option down there. Yes they should be allowed to compete to be the bests team in the state and D9 said at the beginning for the year, d9 would be the place for them to start. No team gets anything out of beating a team 10-0 and no team that gets beat 10-0 gets anything out of it!
Looking at the records--this must be the Blaine Bantam A team. You played 35 tournament/scrimmage games. Your record against them was pretty similar to that of your district record. Which shows that the District is not that weak. Maybe you need to move to a Tier 1 schedule--that's how good you seem to think you are . With the attitude you show, is it any wonder why people have such disdain for your association? You obviously have a very good squad--congrats-- but try and show a little humility.
I applaud Dave Swenson for coming to this forum and posting the facts and truth about this situation.
I have attacked Fred's stance on this topic. He started the topic and has continued to post lies as opposed to anything more than his biased opinion.
Fred and I have every right to remain anonymous in this forum, however, he has poured out lies and personal attacks D9 directors, the Rochester association and is silly enough to assume the Rochester Red team parents made this decision. As Mr. Swenson stated, the situation of Rochester Red was discussed from day one in the formation of D9, long before tryouts were held.
I don't want to single out one association for an anology, so you can pick any association of Rochester's size (1,000 players). A program that comes to my mind of similar size is Edina. Assume through redistricting, Edina was moved to a newly formed District where several associations didn't field any A level teams and other associations chose to play at the A level, though their ability level is actually comparable to B1 around the rest of Minnesota. The other associations did not field B2 or C teams. They had virtually no girl teams and no Jr. Gold. Don't you think "special" considerations would have to be made to accomodate this large associations in a district with small associations?
The real sad part of this is that people like Fred, have no clue what they are talking about, yet spew lies and insults at the wrong targets. Furthermore, if Fred is a highly respected blogger, wouldn't you think he might research the situation just a bit before starting this thread?
And wouldn't you think Fred would have researched the Bantam level also.
Fred has so many facts wrong, it is laughable.
So if Fred and his followers believe that people are being mean to him, look at the ridiculous accusations Fred has made at D9 and Rochester. His bias does not appear to be based soley as a Pee-Wee blogger. This is a clear indication of sour grapes. His team finished 4th in league play and Fred wanted a bye into the tournament. He had to play his way in and lost. To a B1 Pee-Wee team. Ouch, that would sting any of us!
Expressor16 wrote:Correction. Yes, I was speaking of District 10.
This has been done before. This was something that we discussed with districts that had done this before. I can't speak for the board, but I believe the district will not allow this to get out of hand. I have heard talk that other associations said they could do the same thing as Rochester Red for next season. Remember, the district director has to approve this along with his board. It would be my belief that we will not let this snowball into a district that will allow any association to opt out of league play and still be eligible for playoffs. This year was a trial, of sorts. Rochester will continue to work with the district to do what is best for District 9. I believe that if the district requires the Red teams to participate in league play next year, they will do so.
See you all at the rink. Good luck to the playoff teams.
Dave Swenson
Think this sums up ... this Roch Red thing is a trial this year by D9. People have strong opinion about it is exactly because this could get out of hand, do the same ... and snowballs ...
For those argued for Roch Red now, may have a hard sell next year!
Mnhockeys: I think you are correct that Rochester Red will play a league schedule next year. I also think Rochester will remove the two A2 teams from the A level and play them at the B1 level where they belong.
Can you hear the screaming now that the A and B levels were dominated by Rochester and Rochester needs 4 or 5 A teams to level the playing field in District 9? Even though the top Rochester team is only a top 50 team in the State!
The next year, Rochester Red will be forced out of league play and again seeded #1.
Eventually District 9 will kick Rochester out and Mn Hockey will really have a problem on their hand. Which district will be forced to accept Rochester.
Driving to the office this morning, I had a thought. Rare indeed.
Much of this discussion is revolving around the competition on game day.
My friends...the games are merely a yard stick. Very little development happens in a game other that allowing a player to measure his/her skills against other players.
The true importance to development is what happens at practice. How it is planned and executed. Hockey Players(as apposed to kids you play hockey) come out of programs that have strong coaching staffs that recognize the importance of good, effective practice. If all a kid did when they started playing hockey is play games, they wouldn't do very well. That is why college programs practice more than they play. I like to think that games tell me what we have to do in practice. Practice is the most important element in the development of Hockey Players.
When a district has a policy that is vague and filled with ambiguity, then people inside associations will use that do what they can to “win” or further a private agenda. These same people, after pushing for whatever change that drives them, stay for two years and they move on because their kids move on. The mess is left for those that follow to clean up.
The D9 claims that the Rochester Red did the right thing and that it was a one year experiment or maybe not. Others on this board are now sensing the real argument; this is testing the rules to see if a super league can be formed.
It is setting a precedent on how all districts can operate. Next year other districts can do the same thing. Then the next logical thing is for those “independent teams” to band together.
One of the foundations of this super team concept is that the super team will always beat the other district teams by scores like 10-0. As someone else said here, how do you know what team will beat another team 10-0 when schedules are drawn in August and September and prime ice hours allocated by associations?
This is wrong on so many levels, yet the current D9 board thinks it is fair. Minnesota Hockey needs to resolve this and not buy the idea that this is a one year experiment. They need to do this soon. A judgment is needed.
It looks like you want MH and Districts to dictate how affiliates structure theirs teams and develop their members' players. That is a sure-fire way to chase programs out of Districts and into Private Clubs. Affiliates, through their districts, have to work together to create competitive leagues. Affiliates have to figure out how to develop hockey players.
MH does have a rule , # Q6 states "Only teams participating in leagues formed within district jurisdiction are eligible for MH post season tournaments." This is why this exception was made for this year approved by MH and District 9. If any other teams want to do this, they have to have this rule waived.
The rule you quote should be modified to specifically state that no exception will be given if the district has an existing league at that level of play and that the association has been offered participation. If no exception is granted by Minnesota Hockey and the district chooses to allow the associations independent team play in its playoffs, the independent team will not be able to participate in regional or state tournaments.
The normal process is that someone involved should file a grievance with Minnesota Hockey and let them decide. I believe that this happened so fast, contrary to what D9 is claiming, that there was little time for D9 people concerned to react. But I am suggesting D8 (or possibly D4) file a grievance since their teams will be playing Rochester Red in the South Regional.
Minnesota Hockey has a process for handling such a grievance, I would hope that they could handle this in a timely matter. If not, they need to address and issue a ruling prior to the start of next season.
It looks like you want MH and Districts to dictate how affiliates structure theirs teams and develop their members' players. That is a sure-fire way to chase programs out of Districts and into Private Clubs. Affiliates, through their districts, have to work together to create competitive leagues. Affiliates have to figure out how to develop hockey players.
MH does have a rule , # Q6 states "Only teams participating in leagues formed within district jurisdiction are eligible for MH post season tournaments." This is why this exception was made for this year approved by MH and District 9. If any other teams want to do this, they have to have this rule waived.
Expressor - this is what I've been battling all week. Fred wants to CHANGE the present rule (Fred, just calling it ambiguous does not make it so - I cited the language of the rule on the 9th page of this post for you to quote where the ambiguity is or where a rule was being broken - you never have done that simple task.)
I'm fine with Fred's opinion and he should argue for the rule to be changed next year if he feels so strongly about it... but coming out in the is forum, on the eve of districts, and accusing Rochester Red and District 9 of breaking rules and being "wrong" took it to a level of self-egotism and either false accusations or a blind disregard for the truth.
While I believe the present rule is perfect - it allows Districts to weigh all the factors and make a decision as to individual teams and years - Fred's perfectly within his rights to disagree with the rule and propose its change.
I just wish he wouldn't have done it the way he did... not our beloved Frederick61 that we all talked about at the rink as the "godfather of MN PeeWee A hockey"... just cheapens everything about him.
Hmmm . . . If you really are a District 10 coach and you coach a peewee A team, you are either an Elk River, a Centennial or a Blaine coach. I am confident you are not the head Centennial coach because he would not post such an arrogant statement, which leaves Elk River or Blaine. Both of those teams played numerous scrimmages against top 10 teams and played in highly competitive tournaments, which means neither team suffered because they were "forced" to play in District 10 league games. As Ugotta . . . accurately pointed out, on any given day in District 10, the top nine teams are capable of winning (or losing) in District 10 league play. The fact is our society is built on earning your way to the dance; simply because you arrogantly declare yourself the best doesn't mean you deserve to bow out of the hard work required to earn your "right" to play for a District championship. Either you're part of the District league or you're not; if you are, you play a league schedule and then you play the top teams in scrimmages and tournament games. If you're not, you don't play in District league games and you stay home during the District tournament because you didn't earn the right to play for the District championship.
. With the attitude you show, is it any wonder why people have such disdain for your association? You obviously have a very good squad--congrats-- but try and show a little humility.