A & AA classification starting at Pee Wee in 2012-13

TTpuckster · Post by **TTpuckster** » Fri May 13, 2011 1:47 pm

frederick61 wrote:
youngblood08 wrote:It will change a few things. 8 more teams will get a little longer season, a few more games and more experience. Isn't that part of development??
What eight teams?

Adding another state tournament for 8 more teams to be at.

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Fri May 13, 2011 3:51 pm

TTpuckster wrote:
frederick61 wrote:
youngblood08 wrote:It will change a few things. 8 more teams will get a little longer season, a few more games and more experience. Isn't that part of development??
What eight teams?
Adding another state tournament for 8 more teams to be at.

Two questions:
1. Do all peewee AA/A teams play in the current state tourney?

2. If not then what eight AA teams are chosen? Then do the eight teams chosen just go to a tourney site and skip district and regional playoffs?

youngblood08 · Post by **youngblood08** » Sat May 14, 2011 4:49 am

Currently you have 1 A level and 1 B level state tournament, both with 8 teams. Correct fred?

If they propose to add a AA level you would have,

8 teams in the AA tourney,

8 teams in the A level tourney,

and

8 teams in the B level tourney.

Did I do the math right? Is that 8 more teams??

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Sat May 14, 2011 8:37 am

Most of the discussion has been around the playoffs. If I am understanding the system, the large associations will have AA and A teams playing district games against each other. Without analyzing district 6 too heavily, last year's B teams at New Prague, Waconia, and Richfield will now field A teams, and the AA associations will field A teams - giving D6 more than 20 teams to play games against each other. This will lead to the Burnsville AA v Richfield, Eden Prairie AA v Waconia, and Edina AA v New Prague games that many folks on here have passionately complained about.

In high school, a team may often get beat up pretty badly during the regular season if it is the smallest school in the conference, then go on to be successful in the post-season, but as Fred and a couple others have pointed out, this isn't high school.

the_juiceman · Post by **the_juiceman** » Sat May 14, 2011 8:40 am

observer wrote:There was also a discussion of dropping B level State Tournaments a year ago. Possibly related?

I also heard this. There will only be 2 levels of state tourneys--whether it's AA & A or A & B---nothing will change except what they decide to call it. A rose is a rose is a rose.........

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Sat May 14, 2011 8:48 am

youngblood08 wrote:Currently you have 1 A level and 1 B level state tournament, both with 8 teams. Correct fred?

If they propose to add a AA level you would have,

8 teams in the AA tourney,

8 teams in the A level tourney,

and

8 teams in the B level tourney.

Did I do the math right? Is that 8 more teams??

You have the math right, but that is not the question. The Minnesota Hockey handbook has laid out how and when teams play down for the A and B level tourneys for the next three years (through March 2014). Nothing is mentioned in the handbook about how a AA tourney play down will occur or if there will be a AA play down.

As I said previously, 61 of the associations that fielded peewee A teams last year and another 6-8 associations that fielded peewee B teams support high schools that play AA hockey.

The question is how will Minnesota hockey re-structure the handbook to establish how they will select 8 teams from the list of 70 or so peewee teams currently playing A level hockey. The second question is what happens to the A level play since there would be 40 or so teams left in the A level tourney. Currently 32 teams at the A and B level advance to the regional tourneys, why have district playoffs at the A level.

You can change the mix at the A/B level by moving designations within large associations to expand the number of A level teams. Then this is what starts to happen. Should the Edinas and Wayzata's be allowed to designate A level and AA level teams (meaning their top 17 on are the AA and their next !7 are on the A level teams). Moorhead tried this last year and bent over backwards to make certain their AA team did not play the A team. Why? People would say that is unfair, others would say they are afraid that the A level team will develop faster and beat the AA team.

If the AA and A teams coming from a single association, how can they play in the same district at the A level? Moorhead forced their A level team to forfeit their two district games to the AA team. I can think of a great deal of other controversial things that will happen, so why do it? What is the benefit?

Nobody answers that question, but this is more then just adding games for 8 teams. It is not about math.

DumpandChase1 · Post by **DumpandChase1** » Sat May 14, 2011 1:40 pm

I believe the bantams are going to do this program this coming season, 2011-2012, and run much like the current maroon and gold league. From what I have heard they are going to have the larger associations form a AA team. They will also have an A team that will play in the district. The AA will not play in the district, instead, they will play the other AA teams. AA teams will only play A teams in tournaments and scrimmages, so teams from the same associations will not have to play each other.

Not sure how many teams will be classified AA, and there is a way for associtions to opt down and for smaller associations to opt up.

So my guess is you will have about 20 to 25 AA teams and roughly the same amount of A teams as there are now, although some smaller associtions the field AA teams my not want to field and A team and just go straight to B1.

Again, this is what I have heard from some MN hockey people, not sure if it is all true or not.

goaliewithfoggedglasses · Sat May 14, 2011 3:26 pm

DumpandChase1 wrote:I believe the bantams are going to do this program this coming season, 2011-2012

I heard the same.

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Sat May 14, 2011 6:07 pm

The AA/A motion that was passed at the April meeting calls for this to be implemented for the 2012-13 season for both Peewee and Bantam levels. The motion passed and is being sent to the tournament committee to come up with both a region format state wide and host also a host for the additional state tournaments.
Some Districts will be doing pilot projects this coming season at either the Bantam or Peewee or both levels and there will probably be variations.

Fred as to modifying the Mn Handbook, future rotations of tournament at the region and state ;eve; are always subject to change and gives the districts a chance to prepare for the following year. The 2012-13 handbook will have all the changes.

This is not a new idea, this proposal has been in discussions for over 10 years and was championed by Dave Hendrickson for many years. The idea is to have the larger associations field multiple teams at the A level and the small associations that have been strong at the B level a chance to move up and also now maybe at the small associations maybe the better players will stay and play at the A level instead of going to high school. And yes there was talk about not having the B state tournament but that was dropped and the extra state tournaments will be added.

It is also a shame that with the peewee checking being discussed that weekend not anyone from this board attended except me,you would have had a chance to hear the Pres. of USA Hockey defend the position.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Sat May 14, 2011 9:18 pm

you would have had a chance to hear the Pres. of USA Hockey defend the position.

Did he offer anything that hasn't already been published by USAH?

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Sat May 14, 2011 9:57 pm

It appears the starting point for this change (and the principle change that is being made) is that some of the 70 or so associations that support high schools that play AA high school hockey will be designated by Minnesota Hockey as being required to play AA peewee and AA bantam. Those same associations will be encouraged to also field A teams.

When will Minnesota Hockey tell the association they must field a peewee AA or bantam AA team? Prior to the start of the season? In December?

Minnesota Hockey will define AA teams to be fielded to be comprised of the top 17 players in the association and will designate that the associations next 17 players be encouraged to play A level hockey.

Further to be eligible for AA state tourney or A state tourney, the two teams will have to play in their respective districts A level league. Once the season is over, the AA teams will be entered in their own tourney to play down for a state title.

The designation of AA and A in this instance will be as defined by Minnesota Hockey, not USA hockey, and will reflect the current Minnesota age levels.

Do we have a starting point for this thread?

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Sat May 14, 2011 11:33 pm

IM,
I believe he was surprised by the possible effect it would have on girls hockey in this state, and reading between the lines this is not a done deal as some think. North Dakota and others will follow Minnesota.

Community Based · Post by **Community Based** » Sun May 15, 2011 6:32 am

Weird how they come up with this stuff because in truth a youth association really has nothing to do with any particular high school. They're different organizations with different members and ruling boards. Several youth associations develop players in support of several high schools with no particular alliance with any of them. Players from some associations attend as many as 8 different high schools. As 501C3 organizations youth associations have different goals and certainly different responsibilities to their membership.

Is Dave Hendrickson currently, actively, involved with a youth association? Does he currently have a son or daughter playing youth hockey? Is this something that will benefit the youth association he's involved with?

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Sun May 15, 2011 10:06 am

Community Based wrote:Weird how they come up with this stuff because in truth a youth association really has nothing to do with any particular high school. They're different organizations with different members and ruling boards. Several youth associations develop players in support of several high schools with no particular alliance with any of them. Players from some associations attend as many as 8 different high schools. As 501C3 organizations youth associations have different goals and certainly different responsibilities to their membership.

Is Dave Hendrickson currently, actively, involved with a youth association? Does he currently have a son or daughter playing youth hockey? Is this something that will benefit the youth association he's involved with?

I wonder if Lakeville Association would be allowed to have one AA team (top 17 players) and two A level teams (Lakeville North and Lakeville South) all playing in District 8.

Post by **karl(east)** » Sun May 15, 2011 10:50 am

Community Based wrote:Weird how they come up with this stuff because in truth a youth association really has nothing to do with any particular high school. They're different organizations with different members and ruling boards. Several youth associations develop players in support of several high schools with no particular alliance with any of them. Players from some associations attend as many as 8 different high schools. As 501C3 organizations youth associations have different goals and certainly different responsibilities to their membership.

Is Dave Hendrickson currently, actively, involved with a youth association? Does he currently have a son or daughter playing youth hockey? Is this something that will benefit the youth association he's involved with?

This was my reaction, too. This rule change, along with last year's new rule aligning association boundaries with high school attedance areas, makes complete sense for a public high school with a single youth program. Why not bring the organization further into one's orbit? It's a problem for districts feeding multiple high schools, and for private schools.

I think this move has some very real merits, but I also think it's a power grab. I will let others judge whether that's good or bad, but I find it very interesting.

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Sun May 15, 2011 1:10 pm

What is more interesting is that Minnesota Hockey will be telling larger associations how they must run their programs. Minnesota hockey will say "because your high school is playing AA hockey this year (but may not next year), your association (all 70 associations?) must field a AA bantam and a AA peewee team".

Then like Obamacare, there will be exceptions made. Some divine body within Minnesota Hockey will rule, sometime between June of 2012 and September 2012, to allow a certain number of associations to opt out. But because Minnesota hockey will need to have enough teams to fill at least an 8 team tourney, the divine body will have to devise a way to get to the magic number.

Those 8 teams will then skip their districts (3-6 games) and skip the regionals (3-5 games) to play in a 3 game state tourney designated peewee AA.

Is this something that Minnesota Hockey really wants to do? Does the board really want to decide what "level teams" an association should field and to base that judgement on the level high school kids (four to seven years older) are playing?

DumpandChase1 · Post by **DumpandChase1** » Sun May 15, 2011 2:44 pm

Besides Rochester and St. Cloud, what other associations feed more than 1 public high school?

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Sun May 15, 2011 6:02 pm

I'm pretty sure OMGHA was stated earlier. They are certainly not the only co-op. Pequot Lakes and CIA? Mpls Park?

Mankato has two high schools. Does Sleepy Eye have an association or are they fed by New Ulm? Have all the River Lakes communities combined for high school?

Is there going to be 12U AA or is this just for the boys?

Concerned Hockey Coach · Thu May 19, 2011 10:23 am

DumpandChase1 wrote:Besides Rochester and St. Cloud, what other associations feed more than 1 public high school?

Why is the question tailored at "public"?

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Thu May 19, 2011 10:33 am

Good point- Wayzeta feeds about five scxhools, edina same.

jBlaze3000 · Post by **jBlaze3000** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:51 am

Just heard about this "AA" designation so I had to bump this thread. When I first heard about this, it sounded to me like it would simply be a classification given to associations, and would change nothing at the team level. So Blaine for instance, would still field an A team at their top level, but would be considered an "AA" association so while they might play the Princeton A team during the district season, they would be separated for the state tourney (assuming Princeton is considered an A association).

If they are really talking about adding a new team level I personally think they dropped the ball.

Again to use District 10 as an example, Chisago Lakes did not field an A team at some levels last year (only B1, B2, and C). If an AA team level is added I imagine Chisago would field an A team but not an AA team and then what really changes??? Nothing. If they wanted to add another level they should have required all MN associations to adhere to the B1/ B2 classification (right now some districts just have B teams without the B1 or B2 designation).

Are they getting rid of the B1/ B2 designation or will some associations really field AA, A, B1, B2, and C teams??? If so I don't think it was needed or see the point.

crazyhorse · Post by **crazyhorse** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:00 pm

The thing that stinks with this set-up and even the way MH Hockey is set up today is that the 1-4 "A" level players playing on an "A" team in smaller or weaker communities get pummeled by the big boys all year long. They are held hostage to their "home" association due to residency rules and now they will not be able to play versus the top players across the state in the playoffs. Development of these type of players is already hindered and now it would be even more. Wish all the true "A" players could play with those at their level of play somehow.

ThePuckStopsHere · Post by **ThePuckStopsHere** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:10 pm

crazyhorse wrote:The thing that stinks with this set-up and even the way MH Hockey is set up today is that the 1-4 "A" level players playing on an "A" team in smaller or weaker communities get pummeled by the big boys all year long. They are held hostage to their "home" association due to residency rules and now they will not be able to play versus the top players across the state in the playoffs. Development of these type of players is already hindered and now it would be even more. Wish all the true "A" players could play with those at their level of play somehow.

Only if the hockey world could be perfect and everyone that plays with your son is as good as him

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:25 pm

It is on the agenda this weekend for discussion and the full agenda is posted on the Mn Hockey fall meeting. Go and find out for yourself the reasons and can participate in the discussion.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:37 pm

crazyhorse wrote: Wish all the true "A" players could play with those at their level of play somehow.

Like they do all spring and summer?