A & AA classification starting at Pee Wee in 2012-13

[frederick61]

Last year Red Lake Falls lost to LOW 4-3, TRF beat Park Rapids 10-1 (D15), EGF beat Crookston 3-1, and Kittson Central lost to Warroad 15-0 (after Kittson Central beat Bagley/Fosston 5-2 to reach the quarterfinals).

TRF then beat LOW 3-1 and Warroad beat EGF 3-2 in the semifinals. TRF beat Warroad 4-1 to win the Section 8A title and advance to state. This was Section 8A’s draw last year. Kittson Central High School is in Hallock.

In Section 8AA, Roseau eventually lost to Moorhead 3-2 (D15) and beating MALM (D5) and Bemidji lost to Brainerd (D15) 4-1 after beating River Lakes (D5) 8-2.

The Sectional Structure to play down to a State Tourney makes sense once you establish a class system such as AA and A because you do not have enough teams in any one class to support the current three tourney approach (district, regional, and state). It does make sense if you have a single class system such as B will be or perhaps the U14 and U12 will be for the girls.

What makes the AA/A proponents at Minnesota Hockey believe they can devise a better system then the MSHL?

Minnesota Hockey has published a four year schedule of tourney structures for bantam A, bantam B, peewee A, peewee B, U14A, U14B, U12A, and U12B district, regional and state tourneys. It has been somewhat easy because Minnesota Hockey basically synched all the levels to a single set of tables for those four years. That approach has eliminated a lot of contention since everybody knows where they will be playing in February/March 2012, 2013, and 2014.

Now it appears they are trying to find a cheap way of adding the AA tiers without changing those tables. It will not work and if they try to not re-align those tables/schedules, then Minnesota Hockey will have to enter the fray to decide which teams play where when January 2013 rolls around.

[the_juiceman]

D10 is going AA/A/B1/B2 this year and as I understand, it will look something like this

AA - Centennial, Blaine, Elk River, Anoka, Andover, Champlin Park
A - Chisago Lakes, Princeton, Spring Lake Park, Rogers, Irondale, Cambridge, Coon Rapids
B1 - Chisago, Anoka, Elk River, Blaine 1, Blaine 2, Centennial 1, Centennial 2, Spring Lake Park, Andover, Cambridge, Champlin Park, Coon Rapids, Rogers
B2 - Anoka, Blaine, Centennial, Elk River, Spring Lake Park, Andover, Champlin Park, St. Francis, Princeton, Rogers, Irondale

The only problem this year is that the "A" teams will have to play the AA teams to get to regions.

does Mora, N.Branch, Pine City field any Bantam teams?

[MrBoDangles]

D10 is going AA/A/B1/B2 this year and as I understand, it will look something like this

AA - Centennial, Blaine, Elk River, Anoka, Andover, Champlin Park
A - Chisago Lakes, Princeton, Spring Lake Park, Rogers, Irondale, Cambridge, Coon Rapids
B1 - Chisago, Anoka, Elk River, Blaine 1, Blaine 2, Centennial 1, Centennial 2, Spring Lake Park, Andover, Cambridge, Champlin Park, Coon Rapids, Rogers
B2 - Anoka, Blaine, Centennial, Elk River, Spring Lake Park, Andover, Champlin Park, St. Francis, Princeton, Rogers, Irondale

The only problem this year is that the "A" teams will have to play the AA teams to get to regions.

We've now established the six progams that kids will now waive/move into for this new "ELITE" level of competition. Look for families to be clamouring to get in so that they don't feel left behind and for the other programs to suffer.

There will come a day when a team like Edina will be mostly waive or move - ins.

This is what MNH came up with for a proper fit for all kids? Do they not see that they're leaving the small association kid even further back in opportunities?

Now the chance for High Peformance and other programs will swith from just A to these few AA programs???

It all makes sense when I look back to HS and think of who was in student government...... We're jacked as a society.

[Shinbone_News]

D10 is going AA/A/B1/B2 this year and as I understand, it will look something like this

AA - Centennial, Blaine, Elk River, Anoka, Andover, Champlin Park
A - Chisago Lakes, Princeton, Spring Lake Park, Rogers, Irondale, Cambridge, Coon Rapids
B1 - Chisago, Anoka, Elk River, Blaine 1, Blaine 2, Centennial 1, Centennial 2, Spring Lake Park, Andover, Cambridge, Champlin Park, Coon Rapids, Rogers
B2 - Anoka, Blaine, Centennial, Elk River, Spring Lake Park, Andover, Champlin Park, St. Francis, Princeton, Rogers, Irondale

The only problem this year is that the "A" teams will have to play the AA teams to get to regions.

We've now established the six progams that kids will now waive/move into for this new "ELITE" level of competition. Look for families to be clamouring to get in so that they don't feel left behind and for the other programs to suffer.

There will come a day when a team like Edina will be mostly waive or move - ins.

This is what MNH came up with for a proper fit for all kids? Do they not see that they're leaving the small association kid even further back in opportunities?

Now the chance for High Peformance and other programs will swith from just A to these few AA programs???

It all makes sense when I look back to HS and think of who was in student government...... We're jacked as a society.

Ahh, the shrill cries of End Times. Look, it's an experiment for ONE YEAR to try to get teams OTHER than Edina, Wayzata, Moorhead and Duluth into post-season play.

I still have not heard a good answer about how Class A brings all of Minnesota High School Hockey down every March, or why Edina does not NOW have mostly waivers and move-ins on its youth teams. Bo, you make it sound like association presidents are sitting around with a stack of waivers just champing at the bit to sign 'em. They're not, though plenty of community-based-hockey haters wish they were.

[MrBoDangles]

D10 is going AA/A/B1/B2 this year and as I understand, it will look something like this

AA - Centennial, Blaine, Elk River, Anoka, Andover, Champlin Park
A - Chisago Lakes, Princeton, Spring Lake Park, Rogers, Irondale, Cambridge, Coon Rapids
B1 - Chisago, Anoka, Elk River, Blaine 1, Blaine 2, Centennial 1, Centennial 2, Spring Lake Park, Andover, Cambridge, Champlin Park, Coon Rapids, Rogers
B2 - Anoka, Blaine, Centennial, Elk River, Spring Lake Park, Andover, Champlin Park, St. Francis, Princeton, Rogers, Irondale

The only problem this year is that the "A" teams will have to play the AA teams to get to regions.

does Mora, N.Branch, Pine City field any Bantam teams?

These three teams could of combined to form an A Bantam caliber type team... Instead a couple from NB waived to CL's highest level, a couple to FL's probaby highest level, a couple enrolled at Totino Grace for Hockey and another at STA..... These kids had no fair shake at the youth level. The NB HS program could of been getting 5-6 high quality players a year if District 10 gave a crap about about these kids. Instead, this will be the last year for the North Branch HS program (Two 9th and and two 8th left, total).

And Shinbone ... you have no idea.

[observer]

A - Chisago Lakes, Princeton, Spring Lake Park, Rogers, Irondale, Cambridge, Coon Rapids

Confused. Rogers, SLP and Irondale are AA high schools. Do any of the other youth associations you've suggested will play at the A level primarily feed a AA high school? Did they petition down? Now you'll have some youth associations petitioning down so they can trophy chase. I also think of the north where assocations are having more and more difficulty competing with the metro. Is this so some of the mid sized northern associations, or more of them, have a place to compete for State titles?

I've heard MN Hockey is all about the high school experience at the highest level but I think they went to far to try and make connections between youth and HS when there really aren't any. They should treat the two, MN Youth Hockey and MN HS Hockey, as separate entities because they really aren't connected.

KISS

[Goalie Dude]

A - Chisago Lakes, Princeton, Spring Lake Park, Rogers, Irondale, Cambridge, Coon Rapids

Confused. Rogers, SLP and Irondale are AA high schools. Do any of the other youth associations you've suggested will play at the A level primarily feed a AA high school? Did they petition down? Now you'll have some youth associations petitioning down so they can trophy chase. I also think of the north where assocations are having more and more difficulty competing with the metro. Is this so some of the mid sized northern associations, or more of them, have a place to compete for State titles?

I've heard MN Hockey is all about the high school experience at the highest level but I think they went to far to try and make connections between youth and HS when there really aren't any. They should treat the two, MN Youth Hockey and MN HS Hockey, as separate entities because they really aren't connected.

KISS

Unless I am checking this wrong....according to MNHSL for Hockey
Rogers - Section 5A
Spring Lake Park - Section 4A
Irondale - Section 5AA

You are batting 0.333 Not bad for baseball

[observer]

Bo, I understand what you're saying and agree that what you describe is also the wrong direction.

This suggestion must have been advanced by a small group because I don't think the majority of hockey families would be in favor of the change.

[observer]

Unless I am checking this wrong....according to MNHSL for Hockey
Rogers - Section 5A
Spring Lake Park - Section 4A
Irondale - Section 5AA

You are batting 0.333 Not bad for baseball

I don't know. I went to the home page for each school on the MSHSL site and it lists each as AA. I thought it was based on attendance.

Coon Rapids 2120
Irondale 1355
Rogers 1161

http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/index.asp

My main point is that it should be based on size of youth association not size of high school. There isn't a direct connection between the two.

[Goalie Dude]

[/quote]
I don't know. I went to the home page for each school on the MSHSL site and it lists each as AA. I thought it was based on attendance.

http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/index.asp[/quote]

-----------------------

From the main web page, I chose hockey from the dropdown and then choose each school from the subdrop. I took the section info from the banner on the right.

Not sure where the correct info lives.......

[Goalie Dude]

Unless I am checking this wrong....according to MNHSL for Hockey
Rogers - Section 5A
Spring Lake Park - Section 4A
Irondale - Section 5AA

You are batting 0.333 Not bad for baseball

I don't know. I went to the home page for each school on the MSHSL site and it lists each as AA. I thought it was based on attendance.

Coon Rapids 2120
Irondale 1355
Rogers 1161

http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/index.asp

My main point is that it should be based on size of youth association not size of high school. There isn't a direct connection between the two.

I got the same sections as my first post at MN Hockey Hub.

And I agree, it should be based on association size.

[MrBoDangles]

D10 is going AA/A/B1/B2 this year and as I understand, it will look something like this

AA - Centennial, Blaine, Elk River, Anoka, Andover, Champlin Park
A - Chisago Lakes, Princeton, Spring Lake Park, Rogers, Irondale, Cambridge, Coon Rapids
B1 - Chisago, Anoka, Elk River, Blaine 1, Blaine 2, Centennial 1, Centennial 2, Spring Lake Park, Andover, Cambridge, Champlin Park, Coon Rapids, Rogers
B2 - Anoka, Blaine, Centennial, Elk River, Spring Lake Park, Andover, Champlin Park, St. Francis, Princeton, Rogers, Irondale

The only problem this year is that the "A" teams will have to play the AA teams to get to regions.

We've now established the six progams that kids will now waive/move into for this new "ELITE" level of competition. Look for families to be clamouring to get in so that they don't feel left behind and for the other programs to suffer.

There will come a day when a team like Edina will be mostly waive or move - ins.

This is what MNH came up with for a proper fit for all kids? Do they not see that they're leaving the small association kid even further back in opportunities?

Now the chance for High Peformance and other programs will swith from just A to these few AA programs???

It all makes sense when I look back to HS and think of who was in student government...... We're jacked as a society.

Ahh, the shrill cries of End Times. Look, it's an experiment for ONE YEAR to try to get teams OTHER than Edina, Wayzata, Moorhead and Duluth into post-season play.

I still have not heard a good answer about how Class A brings all of Minnesota High School Hockey down every March, or why Edina does not NOW have mostly waivers and move-ins on its youth teams. Bo, you make it sound like association presidents are sitting around with a stack of waivers just champing at the bit to sign 'em. They're not, though plenty of community-based-hockey haters wish they were.

Who won the C Bantam State Tournament last year?

"OTHER than"

[elliott70]

There are several 'bugs' within the AA - A model right now but written rules are being done right now.

By January the methodology should be in writing.

Essentially, an association 'tied' to a HS will initially be AA or A for post-season play. If an association wants to be something other than what that category is they will declare sometime around June 1 or July1.

An association can have a AA, A, B team or combination of them (again the cognizant DD has some control over it, but hopefully the locals know what will work).

Based on this declaration AA & A (and probably B, too) play-off will be determined (districts - region assignments). A method of playing throughout the year to seed post season will also be determined. Then two state tourneys will be played. A play-ff game between the two champions??? maybe??

But those are the things that are trying to be anticipated and then put into writing.

Will new participants/champions come out of this???
I don't know, but perhaps a few different associations will show up in the end, or at least have a better opportunity.

I have several questions.
1. Will all bantam and peewee level AA, A, and B teams be in the playoffs? Will this apply to U14 and U12 levels?

Bantam - peewees, yes, numbers are not there in girls.
It is anticipated that all AA teams will be in the play-offs.
A & B will be determined within the districts.
D16 all teams make the play-offs in some fashion.
2. Will Minnesota Hockey drop the current regional and state tourney format after this year?

It will be reviewed.
What does that mean???
I am sure it will be modified but dropped, too early to tell.3. Will District playoffs be eliminated (it should for AA and A levels) and as the State High School has done, implement sectionals.

See above. The thought right now is that AA will have 4 regional play-offs, but numbers could change that if everyone jumps to AA. The summer declaration is needed to prepare for that.


4. Some associations wait until as late as mid-November to decide on their level of play. Often the decision is driven by co-op decisions with neighboring associations. Is it practical to force declaration “around June 1 or July 1” since seeding will likely be the processed used to determine “sectional type of play-offs”? The seeding will be the only distinction between AA and A other than high school play.

Yes, that is a problem - especialy for small associations so associations will need some forethought/planning.

Finally, I have some observations. If a large association has AA status and they have a balanced two top level teams, are those teams considered AA. If a large association has AA status, they should not be able to field an A level team even if they have an unbalanced selection process. With an unbalanced selection process, they can field only a B level team.

As of now every association can have two AA, A and B or AA, A, B or AA, A, A, B (the option is the associations and can be any combination)...with the district mandating balanced or unbalanced multi-level teams.
For some this is a concern, but that is the eway it is right now.

Since each association’s talent can vary dramatically year to year, it is nearly impossible to write rules that dictate to associations how to judge their current talent especially if a July 1 date is imposed. This AA/A split will eventually requirement Minnesota Hockey to impose itself on a large association's selection process in some way. Is Minnesota Hockey prepared to do that?

In my opinion, NO.

[elliott70]

D10 is going AA/A/B1/B2 this year and as I understand, it will look something like this

AA - Centennial, Blaine, Elk River, Anoka, Andover, Champlin Park
A - Chisago Lakes, Princeton, Spring Lake Park, Rogers, Irondale, Cambridge, Coon Rapids
B1 - Chisago, Anoka, Elk River, Blaine 1, Blaine 2, Centennial 1, Centennial 2, Spring Lake Park, Andover, Cambridge, Champlin Park, Coon Rapids, Rogers
B2 - Anoka, Blaine, Centennial, Elk River, Spring Lake Park, Andover, Champlin Park, St. Francis, Princeton, Rogers, Irondale

The only problem this year is that the "A" teams will have to play the AA teams to get to regions.

We've now established the six progams that kids will now waive/move into for this new "ELITE" level of competition. Look for families to be clamouring to get in so that they don't feel left behind and for the other programs to suffer.

There will come a day when a team like Edina will be mostly waive or move - ins.

This is what MNH came up with for a proper fit for all kids? Do they not see that they're leaving the small association kid even further back in opportunities?

Now the chance for High Peformance and other programs will swith from just A to these few AA programs???

It all makes sense when I look back to HS and think of who was in student government...... We're jacked as a society.

Just a reminder that the AA & A teams will still play each other in ergular season and in scrimmages, and invitational tournaments.

[the_juiceman]

Unless I am checking this wrong....according to MNHSL for Hockey
Rogers - Section 5A
Spring Lake Park - Section 4A
Irondale - Section 5AA

You are batting 0.333 Not bad for baseball

I don't know. I went to the home page for each school on the MSHSL site and it lists each as AA. I thought it was based on attendance.

Coon Rapids 2120
Irondale 1355
Rogers 1161

http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/index.asp

My main point is that it should be based on size of youth association not size of high school. There isn't a direct connection between the two.

the initial placement will be based on HS size. teams then can petition to play up or down, based on many things... past success, size of youth programs, talent level, etc...--this must be approved by the DD. CR for example has over 2100 in the HS, but only 38 skaters at the bantam level. They can't compete with the ER's Blaine's or Centenial's of D10. so they have been approved to play "A". The Goal is, and should be to play at a level where they can be competitive, not necessarily "trophy" chasing

[MrBoDangles]

D10 is going AA/A/B1/B2 this year and as I understand, it will look something like this

AA - Centennial, Blaine, Elk River, Anoka, Andover, Champlin Park
A - Chisago Lakes, Princeton, Spring Lake Park, Rogers, Irondale, Cambridge, Coon Rapids
B1 - Chisago, Anoka, Elk River, Blaine 1, Blaine 2, Centennial 1, Centennial 2, Spring Lake Park, Andover, Cambridge, Champlin Park, Coon Rapids, Rogers
B2 - Anoka, Blaine, Centennial, Elk River, Spring Lake Park, Andover, Champlin Park, St. Francis, Princeton, Rogers, Irondale

The only problem this year is that the "A" teams will have to play the AA teams to get to regions.

We've now established the six progams that kids will now waive/move into for this new "ELITE" level of competition. Look for families to be clamouring to get in so that they don't feel left behind and for the other programs to suffer.

There will come a day when a team like Edina will be mostly waive or move - ins.

This is what MNH came up with for a proper fit for all kids? Do they not see that they're leaving the small association kid even further back in opportunities?

Now the chance for High Peformance and other programs will swith from just A to these few AA programs???

It all makes sense when I look back to HS and think of who was in student government...... We're jacked as a society.

Just a reminder that the AA & A teams will still play each other in ergular season and in scrimmages, and invitational tournaments.

You don't believe that AA teams will invite "A" teams to their "invitational" tournaments, do you? Think about it!

The wider the gap becomes, the more movement you will see..... Right?

I'm sorry elliot, but

[BlackTape]

This AA / A split was decided to be tried in D10 this season to get more teams to play at the "A" level. All the teams will play in the same district tournament at the end of the season. The top 4 AA teams will be automatically seeded, and the next 4 AA teams will have a playin game with the top 4 "A" teams to earn a spot into the District Tournament.

So D10 got more teams to play at the "A" level regardless if it is "A" or "AA". So for this season I think this is right.

Next season with all the new rules, its a completely different situation.

A little birdie told me that Rogers will be at the AA level this season.

[frederick61]

This AA / A split was decided to be tried in D10 this season to get more teams to play at the "A" level. All the teams will play in the same district tournament at the end of the season. The top 4 AA teams will be automatically seeded, and the next 4 AA teams will have a playin game with the top 4 "A" teams to earn a spot into the District Tournament.

So D10 got more teams to play at the "A" level regardless if it is "A" or "AA". So for this season I think this is right.

Next season with all the new rules, its a completely different situation.

A little birdie told me that Rogers will be at the AA level this season.

A simple question. Elk River, Anoka and Blaine, based on current peewee numbers (about 70-80 kids) can field 5 teams. Centennial, Champlin Park, and Andover can field 4 peewee teams. With those kind of numbers, what does AA, A, B1, B2, and C mean versus A, B1, B2, and C?

[greybeard58]

The District 10 A/AA is for the A Bantam league only for the 2011-12 season. The teams will be registered as "A" Bantams for league play and will be divided into 2 Divisions with All A bantam teams playing each other once and the second round will be with teams of the same division. I believe more will be announced after the final team declarations are made by this weekend, including the play off scenario.

[pro2b@3]

This AA / A split was decided to be tried in D10 this season to get more teams to play at the "A" level. All the teams will play in the same district tournament at the end of the season. The top 4 AA teams will be automatically seeded, and the next 4 AA teams will have a playin game with the top 4 "A" teams to earn a spot into the District Tournament.

So D10 got more teams to play at the "A" level regardless if it is "A" or "AA". So for this season I think this is right.

Next season with all the new rules, its a completely different situation.

A little birdie told me that Rogers will be at the AA level this season.

A simple question. Elk River, Anoka and Blaine, based on current peewee numbers (about 70-80 kids) can field 5 teams. Centennial, Champlin Park, and Andover can field 4 peewee teams. With those kind of numbers, what does AA, A, B1, B2, and C mean versus A, B1, B2, and C?

D10 “attempts” to get to the magic #20 in District 10 league games.
Here is what I have heard or Assume what associations are having for highest Bantam levels in D10 (Final D10 Level declaration is 10/03/2011):
AA – Anoka, Andover, Blaine, Centennial, Champlin Park, Elk River, & Rogers (7)
A – Chisago Lakes, Coon Rapids, Irondale, Princeton, Spring Lake Park, St. Francis, & Cambridge-Isanti (7)
B1 – Mora, North Branch, & Pine City (3)

AA and A teams will play each other in League play in D10. AA will play AA teams twice and A teams once (19 total league Games). A teams will play A teams Twice and AA teams once (19 total League Games). With this setup D10 will have 14 teams playing “A” Hockey.

Last year D10 had 8 A teams at A Bantams, which played each other twice (14 league games at the Bantam A Level).

Regarding District Tourney, I have heard the top 4 AA teams earn a spot into District tourney and the top A teams will have “play in” games to get the remaining 4 spots against the remaining AA teams.

[elliott70]

We've now established the six progams that kids will now waive/move into for this new "ELITE" level of competition. Look for families to be clamouring to get in so that they don't feel left behind and for the other programs to suffer.

There will come a day when a team like Edina will be mostly waive or move - ins.

This is what MNH came up with for a proper fit for all kids? Do they not see that they're leaving the small association kid even further back in opportunities?

Now the chance for High Peformance and other programs will swith from just A to these few AA programs???

It all makes sense when I look back to HS and think of who was in student government...... We're jacked as a society.

Just a reminder that the AA & A teams will still play each other in ergular season and in scrimmages, and invitational tournaments.

You don't believe that AA teams will invite "A" teams to their "invitational" tournaments, do you? Think about it!

The wider the gap becomes, the more movement you will see..... Right?

I'm sorry elliot, but

I am not putting up an argument, just what CAN happen. In the north an A tourney will have to take all comers...
Edina and others may be able to have JUST AA teams, but htey have always been able to accept the teams they want.

[MrBoDangles]

Just a reminder that the AA & A teams will still play each other in ergular season and in scrimmages, and invitational tournaments.

You don't believe that AA teams will invite "A" teams to their "invitational" tournaments, do you? Think about it!

The wider the gap becomes, the more movement you will see..... Right?

I'm sorry elliot, but

I am not putting up an argument, just what CAN happen. In the north an A tourney will have to take all comers...
Edina and others may be able to have JUST AA teams, but htey have always been able to accept the teams they want.

It WILL become AA and A tournaments. In the north, if AA Grand Rapids has a tournament they will have AA teams sign up. Will a Duluth or a Roseau be any different?

If we cut the current A classification by two thirds to form a new "Elite" AA level you will see those 15-20 programs overwhelmed with move-ins or waive-ins. It's kinda like how currently one percent of our country has ninety five percent of it's capital.

The talented players (that now feel seperated) will NOT play second fiddle..

Is this MN Hockey's answer(for)/version of Tier 1 Hockey?

[MrBoDangles]

D10 is going AA/A/B1/B2 this year and as I understand, it will look something like this

AA - Centennial, Blaine, Elk River, Anoka, Andover, Champlin Park ROGERS IS MOVING UP.... SO IT'S THE SAME AS LAST YEAR.
A - Chisago Lakes, Princeton, Spring Lake Park, Rogers, Irondale, Cambridge, Coon Rapids. THESE ARE THE B-1 PROGRAMS FROM LAST YEAR.....
B1 - Chisago, Anoka, Elk River, Blaine 1, Blaine 2, Centennial 1, Centennial 2, Spring Lake Park, Andover, Cambridge, Champlin Park, Coon Rapids, Rogers WHAT CHANGED???
B2 - Anoka, Blaine, Centennial, Elk River, Spring Lake Park, Andover, Champlin Park, St. Francis, Princeton, Rogers, Irondale NOTHING AT ALL!

The only problem this year is that the "A" teams will have to play the AA teams to get to regions.

[InigoMontoya]

Is this MN Hockey's answer(for)/version of Tier 1 Hockey?

Would that be all bad? On the surface, it looks like talented kids could gravitate to the top 20 or 30 associations, and all the others still have a place to play. Of course we'd have to redesign the waiver process to take away the ultimate power from those ill-equipped to wield it.

[MrBoDangles]

Is this MN Hockey's answer(for)/version of Tier 1 Hockey?

Would that be all bad? On the surface, it looks like talented kids could gravitate to the top 20 or 30 associations, and all the others still have a place to play. Of course we'd have to redesign the waiver process to take away the ultimate power from those ill-equipped to wield it.

They already are gravitating... When an older community of forty thousand has two thousand in their youth program you know there's some gravitizational pull going on. And now with the attempt of an "elite" core group.