The state now gets to see how MSHSL dropped the ball...

[muckandgrind]

Ref makes the call or not! Minor or Major Penalty!

Bottom line is the kid laying on the ice has already been hit!

The players need to be properly instructed on their checking techniques!

I am sick of hearing this statement!!! Teaching proper checking techniques is like teaching proper skating, stick or shooting techniques...some kids are still not good at any of them!! I would assume most parents teach their kids that drugs are bad but I bet some of them still try them...........

This is going to be a fundamental change to the mindset of every player and is going to take a long time before it shows up.

I would like to see the punishment stiffer for the player, not so much on the team. That will have more of an impact on changing the way kids think if it is geared to show that they are not playing "the right way" and can't hide behind the team.

Disagree....it's going to have to a fundamental change to the mindset of every HS COACH. They, and THEY ALONE, are responsible for the conduct of the players THEY put on the ice. Maybe it's time the adults accept a little responsibility instead of putting all the blame on the kids.

It's time that the coaches start spending a little more time instilling some discipline in their own players. If every HS coach dropped the hammer on their players that play dirty (and every coach knows which of their players do this), we would see fewer and fewer injuries.

[HShockeywatcher]

I'm already seeing some coaches giving refs a hard time over some of the major penalties being called, over time this will have an effect. We'll see the refs start to swallow their whistle on the "borderline" hits for fear of making a call that could determine the outcome of the game.

I can tell you that this is NOT happening at all at the D1 level. The refs are DEFINITELY not afraid to call a major if that's the way they see it. On "borderline" call situations the two referees will hold a brief conference by the penalty box area to discuss the play, and will then make a decision. When you see this happening, it seems like 9 times out of 10 they're going to call it a major.

The main reason why the stiffer penalties have been accepted in D1 is that the coaches are completely on board with it. This was just confirmed by Brad and Greg Shepard, who were the two guest speakers at the last Gopher Blueline Club meeting. I hope the same level of support eventually develops at the high school level. And the players better learn how to play aggressively WITHOUT taking dumb, dangerous penalties that result in their team having to play shorthanded for 5 minutes. There is one Gopher player who has NOT yet learned this, and it's is a big reason why he hasn't dressed for the last half-dozen games or so.

You're forgetting one BIG difference between HS and D1 (and NHL). At the college and pro level, boarding can still be called for two minutes. They still give the refs some discretion. I still maintain that after the spotlight goes away (which it will over time), the coaches will wear the refs down to the point where they won't call the "borderline" stuff due to the severity of the penalty and we'll see things get worse in the long run.

If you want to really clean up the game, I say go after the coaches. They should be held more responsible than they are for the conduct of the players on their team. If a team received x number of penalties due to "dangerous hits", then the coaches should be suspended x number of games. IMO, THAT would get their attention more than anything else.

I do not disagree with anything you said, but that's not the whole story.

There are two things I see that influence this:

1. I don't know how much influence it has on specific situations, but refs are rated by refs. Right or wrong, their rating matters to them and they don't want coaches to be complaining to them often. I don't know how the system works in college, but I know in the pros it is not this way at all.
How do you fix that or change it?

2. Refs are humans too. They are fans of the game just as we are and like/dislike this change probably similar to other fans. Short of having a committee at each game (or watching footage), how do you mandate that calls are made?
Personally, I would say to pay them more (I doubt attendence would change if $1 more was charged a ticket for example) and have higher standards.

While I don't disagree with holding coaches more accountable, it isn't always so cut and dry. Just my two cents.

[Shinbone_News]

Someone may have already said this, but kids looking to play at higher levels may have noticed that higher levels are already taking a tougher stance on dangerous hits too. The NHL itself modified its head-checking rule from intentional (targeted) contact to any contact at all. D1 refs have been WAY ahead of HS refs in implementing tougher checking from behind rules.

If the USHL or, for that matter, summer AAA in Minnesota doesn't begin to do the same thing it's THOSE leagues that will eventually become irrelevant to the kids who want to make it to The Show.

[Bronc]

[
Disagree....it's going to have to a fundamental change to the mindset of every HS COACH. They, and THEY ALONE, are responsible for the conduct of the players THEY put on the ice. Maybe it's time the adults accept a little responsibility instead of putting all the blame on the kids.

It's time that the coaches start spending a little more time instilling some discipline in their own players. If every HS coach dropped the hammer on their players that play dirty (and every coach knows which of their players do this), we would see fewer and fewer injuries.[/quote]

I believe Coaches do a great job of holding players accountable. Just like any exception you find one offs that do not, but the vast majority of HS Coaches are quality Coaches, Teachers and at the top of the list want to win.

They realize you do not win if you are on the PK non stop. Most HS Coaches would agree in private the new rules are over the top, but understand how the PR machine and desire to PC got us here.

I witness kids long before the accident to #13 happen get benched for too many or dumb penalties or intent to injure. I witnessed Ref's calling kneeing and kicking kids out of games before this change.

What the change did is put everyone on the defensive and over the top. Cross cks in front of the net (and yes that is all they are clearing out) are now 5 min, pinnning a player against the board is now a game changer with no intent nor any injury going to happen, etc.

Thugs and bad coaches need to go, but always needed to go. Now all we are doing is lumping everyone as bad (Coaches, Refs, Players if they don't agree with these changes) and running off the good ones. Heck the bad ones stick around cause they have no where else to go.

[seek & destroy]

I can tell you that this is NOT happening at all at the D1 level. The refs are DEFINITELY not afraid to call a major if that's the way they see it. On "borderline" call situations the two referees will hold a brief conference by the penalty box area to discuss the play, and will then make a decision. When you see this happening, it seems like 9 times out of 10 they're going to call it a major.

The main reason why the stiffer penalties have been accepted in D1 is that the coaches are completely on board with it. This was just confirmed by Brad and Greg Shepard, who were the two guest speakers at the last Gopher Blueline Club meeting. I hope the same level of support eventually develops at the high school level. And the players better learn how to play aggressively WITHOUT taking dumb, dangerous penalties that result in their team having to play shorthanded for 5 minutes. There is one Gopher player who has NOT yet learned this, and it's is a big reason why he hasn't dressed for the last half-dozen games or so.

You're forgetting one BIG difference between HS and D1 (and NHL). At the college and pro level, boarding can still be called for two minutes. They still give the refs some discretion. I still maintain that after the spotlight goes away (which it will over time), the coaches will wear the refs down to the point where they won't call the "borderline" stuff due to the severity of the penalty and we'll see things get worse in the long run.

If you want to really clean up the game, I say go after the coaches. They should be held more responsible than they are for the conduct of the players on their team. If a team received x number of penalties due to "dangerous hits", then the coaches should be suspended x number of games. IMO, THAT would get their attention more than anything else.

I do not disagree with anything you said, but that's not the whole story.

There are two things I see that influence this:

1. I don't know how much influence it has on specific situations, but refs are rated by refs. Right or wrong, their rating matters to them and they don't want coaches to be complaining to them often. I don't know how the system works in college, but I know in the pros it is not this way at all.
How do you fix that or change it?

2. Refs are humans too. They are fans of the game just as we are and like/dislike this change probably similar to other fans. Short of having a committee at each game (or watching footage), how do you mandate that calls are made?
Personally, I would say to pay them more (I doubt attendence would change if $1 more was charged a ticket for example) and have higher standards.

While I don't disagree with holding coaches more accountable, it isn't always so cut and dry. Just my two cents.

Where to start? First, there are several more HUGE differences between H.S. and D1/Pro hockey - the biggest being that D1/Pro teams are the select players that have been scouted from around the country. D1/Pro coaches can pick and choose what type of player they want and get a team filled with nothing but highly skilled, fast players. On the other hand, H.S. coaches have a small pool to pick from and the talent pool is smaller still. Very few have the luxury of sorting through all skilled players and picking the best of the best...they are lucky to have 5-10 skilled players total. Granted, they can make an effort to not take any 'cheap' players but a lot of times they have to take what they got and try to change them. The problems with hits in hockey quite often come from lessor skilled players having to play against higher skilled players. They have learned that their best way to compete is to try to slow the other team down or 'body up' so the other team doesn't want to go into the corners. That allows them a better chance of getting to the puck and competing. I am not saying I condone the decision but it is part of coaching at the H.S. level to do what you can - within the rules - with the talent you have. BUT some of the players are not skilled enough to even do that. The end result is a more dangerous game of hockey because you don't have only highly skilled players on the ice.

Second, I have no issue with punishing coaches more (and have already suggested that) but I don't think there are that many coaches that teach or condone cheap hits. It may be that they want their team to play physical because they are not skilled enough to win the game with skills alone but I don't believe their are many H.S. coaches that truely condone cheap hits.

I also don't agree that paying refs more would help. Most refs will tell you that the biggest reason good refs leave the profession is having to deal with coaches, fans and players constantly bitching about their calls. The money is fine but it isn't worth the abuse they take. Paying more money isn't going to necessarily get bad refs to leave the business and it certainly isn't going to make them make more calls. It's easy to say that we ALL want refs to make the tough calls but, when it is our player that made a borderline hit that was called for a 5 minute major, people are quick to vocalize their displeasure.

One final note: Just so you don't think I'm picking on only lessor skilled players, even the more skilled players in H.S. are often encouraged by their parents and others to 'body up' because they are told that the Junior and D1 scouts are there. They're told make sure to play physical because that is what scouts are looking for in a player. Sometimes these players are not use to hitting because they have always just used their speed but they do their best to be physical. More often than not, their hands slide up a little too high or they give a hit when it looks 'safer' (i.e. not on the open ice) because they have never needed to play a physical style of hockey.

[Bronc]

One final note: Just so you don't think I'm picking on only lessor skilled players, even the more skilled players in H.S. are often encouraged by their parents and others to 'body up' because they are told that the Junior and D1 scouts are there. They're told make sure to play physical because that is what scouts are looking for in a player. Sometimes these players are not use to hitting because they have always just used their speed but they do their best to be physical. More often than not, their hands slide up a little too high or they give a hit when it looks 'safer' (i.e. not on the open ice) because they have never needed to play a physical style of hockey.[/quote]

Well rounded skill players also play physical. And well rounded physical players also have skill.

Good hockey players do both otherwise you are just ok.

But you are correct the diamond are those that can do both.

[HShockeywatcher]

I also don't agree that paying refs more would help. Most refs will tell you that the biggest reason good refs leave the profession is having to deal with coaches, fans and players constantly bitching about their calls. The money is fine but it isn't worth the abuse they take. Paying more money isn't going to necessarily get bad refs to leave the business and it certainly isn't going to make them make more calls. It's easy to say that we ALL want refs to make the tough calls but, when it is our player that made a borderline hit that was called for a 5 minute major, people are quick to vocalize their displeasure.

The main reason I suggest this is that it would get more people in the pool to ref games and make more opportunity to have people to critique them.

You may be right about why most refs get out, but it is also a very real possibility that if they didn't have to worry about coaches, just coaching consistently every game and were paid twice what they are, they wouldn't leave anyway.
To what you said: if there was someway to critique them beyond what the coaches say about them I believe bad refs would not be reffing or they'd become better refs.

[wannabe1975]

Watching the Aves v Wild game, there were more CFB, charges, and crosschecks than any Junior, College, HS or youth game I've ever seen, coached, reffed, or played in (not NHL)... But the NHL is so interested in calling non-aggressive, non-play affecting obstruction hooks and holds, it's a joke. Someone should figure it out, as the Wild have 3-4 out w/concussion related issues and one of the games biggest stars had (still is) trying to come back from it. It's gotta start from the top down....

MSHSL decision was firedrill, litagation driven, MNHoc decision to jump on board for fear of being left out, or not caring but would agree w/some if youth refs (some of whom are now HS, College, even NHL bound offficials) would have continued calling the CFB as written, when introduced. we wouldn't have anything to post here........

[headsup]

Just me or were there fewer 5 minute majors this week?

Games I saw were more physical than last week with more obvious infractions going uncalled (mostly head shots). Not really complaining, but there were no 5 minute majors in the three games I watched.

Maybe the better way to put it is: "I didn't see the first period, gratuitous, weak calls made this week".

[HShockeywatcher]

Watching the Aves v Wild game, there were more CFB, charges, and crosschecks than any Junior, College, HS or youth game I've ever seen, coached, reffed, or played in (not NHL)... But the NHL is so interested in calling non-aggressive, non-play affecting obstruction hooks and holds, it's a joke. Someone should figure it out, as the Wild have 3-4 out w/concussion related issues and one of the games biggest stars had (still is) trying to come back from it. It's gotta start from the top down....

MSHSL decision was firedrill, litagation driven, MNHoc decision to jump on board for fear of being left out, or not caring but would agree w/some if youth refs (some of whom are now HS, College, even NHL bound offficials) would have continued calling the CFB as written, when introduced. we wouldn't have anything to post here........

Another way to think about it is that "it's gotta start from the bottom up..." Imagine a world where students never checked from behind, charged or head other players in the head from the youth level up until high school. Even if they were allowed to, how many do you think would start in college?

[almostashappy]

Imagine a world where students never checked from behind...

"You may say that I'm a dreamer...but I'm not the only one...."

[goldy313]

In the NHL and NCAA very very few players skate with their head down, in high school many if not most kids do now, in high school kids seem to put their heads down and go and rarely have it up looking for the pass. In higher leagues head contact occurs because either the kid got wild with his elbows or delivered a blind side or "sucker" pass hit, in high school with the new rule I see kids sitting for 5 minutes for delivering an otherwise clean check except the kid with the puck had his head down watching the puck on his stick. Not every team has the ability and depth of Duluth East or Minnetonka. We're seeing games decided on who has the best powerplay, I've seen 2 of them the last 2 weeks.

I think the MSHSL is at a crossroads, either get rid of checking entirely like the girls game or back down on these new standards. Nationally the MSHSL is well regarded by other state athletic associations, this knee jerk mid season change looks silly....this isn't the first knee jerk reaction the MSHSL has had in recent years either that made them look silly, in February of 2007 they stopped wrestling in Minnesota for 8 days after 24 kids in 3 weights came down with a skin infection that was traced back to 1 team. The term "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" comes to mind.

[nahc]

Was pretty sure this would happen sometime soon with the new rule changes. Last night Lakeville North played Apple Valley. The score is 4-1 Lakeville North. A North player is called for boarding, 5 minute major. Correct call. Apple Valley scores. Its now 4-2. Same period, a North Defenseman who stands 6"2 goes behind the net for the puck and makes the outlet pass. A Valler forward who stands 5'8 tries to put a big check on the defenseman. The defenseman, who is standing still puts his hands up about chest high to protect himself, and guess what, the momentum of the Valley checker causes a collision and, you guessed it, 5 minute major on the Norht defenseman. Valley scores again, now its 4-3. Same ref makes the call from way across the ice. A few minutes later, a scuffle along the boards. Both players have their gloves up in the opposing players face - 5 minute major called on Lakeville North........by the same ref from again across the ice. Valley scores again to tie the score at 4-4. This happened all in the same period........plus throw in a minor penalty here and there.....by the same ref and to make a long story short, North played with 4 players, sometimes 3 for the entire 2nd period. Everyone is truly concerned about skater safety and everyone's heart goes out to the Jablonski family. Wwe very much need to protect our skaters however these new rules and the enforcement there of is truly a step backwards for Minnesota hockey, in my opinion. The variation of how these penalties are called was highlghted in last nights game by one ref calling 3 and the other ref calling 0........don't know how one fixes this except to expect refs to take the spirit of the rule into account. We can't fix last nights game but sure can use as an education for future games.

[HappyHockeyFan]

Was pretty sure this would happen sometime soon with the new rule changes. Last night Lakeville North played Apple Valley. The score is 4-1 Lakeville North. A North player is called for boarding, 5 minute major. Correct call. Apple Valley scores. Its now 4-2. Same period, a North Defenseman who stands 6"2 goes behind the net for the puck and makes the outlet pass. A Valler forward who stands 5'8 tries to put a big check on the defenseman. The defenseman, who is standing still puts his hands up about chest high to protect himself, and guess what, the momentum of the Valley checker causes a collision and, you guessed it, 5 minute major on the Norht defenseman. Valley scores again, now its 4-3. Same ref makes the call from way across the ice. A few minutes later, a scuffle along the boards. Both players have their gloves up in the opposing players face - 5 minute major called on Lakeville North........by the same ref from again across the ice. Valley scores again to tie the score at 4-4. This happened all in the same period........plus throw in a minor penalty here and there.....by the same ref and to make a long story short, North played with 4 players, sometimes 3 for the entire 2nd period. Everyone is truly concerned about skater safety and everyone's heart goes out to the Jablonski family. Wwe very much need to protect our skaters however these new rules and the enforcement there of is truly a step backwards for Minnesota hockey, in my opinion. The variation of how these penalties are called was highlghted in last nights game by one ref calling 3 and the other ref calling 0........don't know how one fixes this except to expect refs to take the spirit of the rule into account. We can't fix last nights game but sure can use as an education for future games.

Frustrating I am sure, but these types of games may happen from time to time, especially early on. But once these kids start seeing the reprecutions of their actions and finally get it thru their thick heads that it isnt worth it to make those kinds of checks you start to see less of it and those types of games will become a rarity. Thats what I believe anyway...you can disagree of course..lol

[HShockeywatcher]

Was pretty sure this would happen sometime soon with the new rule changes. Last night Lakeville North played Apple Valley. The score is 4-1 Lakeville North. A North player is called for boarding, 5 minute major. Correct call. Apple Valley scores. Its now 4-2. Same period, a North Defenseman who stands 6"2 goes behind the net for the puck and makes the outlet pass. A Valler forward who stands 5'8 tries to put a big check on the defenseman. The defenseman, who is standing still puts his hands up about chest high to protect himself, and guess what, the momentum of the Valley checker causes a collision and, you guessed it, 5 minute major on the Norht defenseman. Valley scores again, now its 4-3. Same ref makes the call from way across the ice. A few minutes later, a scuffle along the boards. Both players have their gloves up in the opposing players face - 5 minute major called on Lakeville North........by the same ref from again across the ice. Valley scores again to tie the score at 4-4. This happened all in the same period........plus throw in a minor penalty here and there.....by the same ref and to make a long story short, North played with 4 players, sometimes 3 for the entire 2nd period. Everyone is truly concerned about skater safety and everyone's heart goes out to the Jablonski family. Wwe very much need to protect our skaters however these new rules and the enforcement there of is truly a step backwards for Minnesota hockey, in my opinion. The variation of how these penalties are called was highlghted in last nights game by one ref calling 3 and the other ref calling 0........don't know how one fixes this except to expect refs to take the spirit of the rule into account. We can't fix last nights game but sure can use as an education for future games.

Frustrating I am sure, but these types of games may happen from time to time, especially early on. But once these kids start seeing the reprecutions of their actions and finally get it thru their thick heads that it isnt worth it to make those kinds of checks you start to see less of it and those types of games will become a rarity. Thats what I believe anyway...you can disagree of course..lol

Additionally, it still amazes how little credit people are giving tall kids. I wasn't at the game so I can't comment on the hit, but to say that a player is unable to a guy guy 6 inches shorter than him on the body is [probably] quite insulting to the tall kid.

That being said, in the scenario you describe, the AV player was "finishing his check" (or at least attempting to) which is also being discouraged.

So, while it seems like the AV could've been called for a penalty, if the North player did in fast make contact with the head of the AV player, then there is nothing that was called wrong. I would personally fault the ref who called no penalties, not the one who was consistently enforcing the rules.

[almostashappy]

....a North Defenseman who stands 6"2 goes behind the net for the puck and makes the outlet pass. A Valler forward who stands 5'8 tries to put a big check on the defenseman. The defenseman, who is standing still puts his hands up about chest high to protect himself, and guess what, the momentum of the Valley checker causes a collision and, you guessed it, 5 minute major on the Norht defenseman.....

Additionally, it still amazes how little credit people are giving tall kids. I wasn't at the game so I can't comment on the hit, but to say that a player is unable to a guy guy 6 inches shorter than him on the body is [probably] quite insulting to the tall kid.

That being said, in the scenario you describe, the AV player was "finishing his check" (or at least attempting to) which is also being discouraged.

So, while it seems like the AV could've been called for a penalty, if the North player did in fast make contact with the head of the AV player, then there is nothing that was called wrong. I would personally fault the ref who called no penalties, not the one who was consistently enforcing the rules.

I wasn't at the game either, so let's call this a hypothetical situation...

Player A has the puck and is standing still behind his own net, looking to make a breakout pass. Player B is barreling towards Player A, intent on making a hard forecheck. Player A makes the pass before Player B can get there. Player B doesn't care...he wants to finish his check.

After finding an open teammate and making the pass, Player A suddenly realizes that Player B has no intention of avoiding contact, and is about to make an ILLEGAL check (as Player A no longer has the puck). Player A TRIES TO PREVENT AN INJURY ARISING FROM AN ILLEGAL CHECK by holding his hands out to dampen the blow.

Because Player A is taller than Player B, and because Player A's head is lower than normal because his knees are bent and he's hell-bent on a hard hit, Player A's gloves make contact with Player B's helmet at the moment of impact.

And you want to give Player A a 5-minute major for head-contact, and (at most) give Player B a 2-min minor for charging? All the result of a player defending against an illegal check by holding out his hands? Too silly.

[seek & destroy]

So, while it seems like the AV could've been called for a penalty, if the North player did in fast make contact with the head of the AV player, then there is nothing that was called wrong. I would personally fault the ref who called no penalties, not the one who was consistently enforcing the rules.

Somehow, I'm not surprised that you would feel there should have been more penalties called. No one is saying that 'tall' people can't hit the body but the fact that their elbows are closer to the head of the shorter players along with the common placed move of ducking makes incidental head contact more likely. Because of the rules, the refs descretion is less than it used to be so it becomes more likely that a head contact call will be made against the taller player. I was not at the game either but I have already seen several 5 minute calls for similar things with a taller player versus a shorter player on the boards.

I am all for safety but I still think the reaction by the hockey community was too fast and too much. We need to keep the 'cheap' players off the ice but we are impacting games way to much with the 5 minute major for questionable hits. People say that the 'players will learn' to not make these hits. That is exactly my point. The hits are considered legal hits anywhere else in the country or at least no worse than a 2 minute boarding.

We are teaching our Minnesota players to be extremely cautious along the boards for fear of drawing a 5 minute major. We are also teaching players how to act and lay on the ice and hopefully draw the 5 minute major. We will see the impact of our decisions in the future but my impression is that when Minnesota players go into Junior tryouts they will be labeled as 'soft' in the corners because they pull up and don't go hard.

[Bronc]

[
Additionally, it still amazes how little credit people are giving tall kids. I wasn't at the game so I can't comment on the hit, but to say that a player is unable to a guy guy 6 inches shorter than him on the body is [probably] quite insulting to the tall kid.

That being said, in the scenario you describe, the AV player was "finishing his check" (or at least attempting to) which is also being discouraged.

So, while it seems like the AV could've been called for a penalty, if the North player did in fast make contact with the head of the AV player, then there is nothing that was called wrong. I would personally fault the ref who called no penalties, not the one who was consistently enforcing the rules.[/quote]

Talk about putting a PR spin on things, wow.

From reading your posts you seem to think any physical player must not be skilled and skilled players don't play physical.

Good (and only good) hockey players can do and do both. If they do not they are just one way players and unless that one way is exceptional they are just so-so and will never achieve much hockey success.

You obviously do not want checking of any kind and the rule change you support is a "Ends Justify The Means" philosophy. However that is NEVER the case. Diving is not ok, cheap shots are not ok, lumping good clean players in because of a horrific accident is not ok. Ends "Do Not" justify the means.

As you previously stated "As a non-hockey player you" - Hard to lead a Squadron if you are not a pilot.

With that said the games I saw this weekend the Ref's did a great job. Games had flow, physical, skill. And everyone on both sides felt that way as well.

I commend them for calling a great game!!

[min090]

Perhaps if the player in question wasn't your son your post would have more credibility. I was there and the call was correct. The Lakeville player extended his arms / hands into the opposing player's head, thus head contact and the correct call.

[HShockeywatcher]

I wasn't at the game either, so let's call this a hypothetical situation...

Player A has the puck and is standing still behind his own net, looking to make a breakout pass. Player B is barreling towards Player A, intent on making a hard forecheck. Player A makes the pass before Player B can get there. Player B doesn't care...he wants to finish his check.

After finding an open teammate and making the pass, Player A suddenly realizes that Player B has no intention of avoiding contact, and is about to make an ILLEGAL check (as Player A no longer has the puck). Player A TRIES TO PREVENT AN INJURY ARISING FROM AN ILLEGAL CHECK by holding his hands out to dampen the blow.

Because Player A is taller than Player B, and because Player A's head is lower than normal because his knees are bent and he's hell-bent on a hard hit, Player A's gloves make contact with Player B's helmet at the moment of impact.

And you want to give Player A a 5-minute major for head-contact, and (at most) give Player B a 2-min minor for charging? All the result of a player defending against an illegal check by holding out his hands? Too silly.

Two things.

1. What I want is for the player who is finishing his check illegally to go to the box, which rarely happens. Just like I think it's ridiculous that the NFL wants to prevent head injury but has no issue with a RB running down the field head first.

2. Okay, so let me get this straight; player A's head is lower because his "knees are bent and he's hell-bent on a hard hit" but for some reason while player B wants to dampen the hit and prevent injury he is standing straight up and puts his hands to where they will make contact with the opposing players head?
If the "tall person" was trying to dampen the blow, he would also bend his knees and if he has been taught that putting his hands to someone else's head will somehow dampen a blow or prevent injury, he has been taught quiet wrong.
Yes, player A is in the wrong. But to say that making head contact is the only thing player B should do also puts him in the wrong.

So, while it seems like the AV could've been called for a penalty, if the North player did in fast make contact with the head of the AV player, then there is nothing that was called wrong. I would personally fault the ref who called no penalties, not the one who was consistently enforcing the rules.

Somehow, I'm not surprised that you would feel there should have been more penalties called. No one is saying that 'tall' people can't hit the body but the fact that their elbows are closer to the head of the shorter players along with the common placed move of ducking makes incidental head contact more likely. Because of the rules, the refs descretion is less than it used to be so it becomes more likely that a head contact call will be made against the taller player. I was not at the game either but I have already seen several 5 minute calls for similar things with a taller player versus a shorter player on the boards.

I am all for safety but I still think the reaction by the hockey community was too fast and too much. We need to keep the 'cheap' players off the ice but we are impacting games way to much with the 5 minute major for questionable hits. People say that the 'players will learn' to not make these hits. That is exactly my point. The hits are considered legal hits anywhere else in the country or at least no worse than a 2 minute boarding.

We are teaching our Minnesota players to be extremely cautious along the boards for fear of drawing a 5 minute major. We are also teaching players how to act and lay on the ice and hopefully draw the 5 minute major. We will see the impact of our decisions in the future but my impression is that when Minnesota players go into Junior tryouts they will be labeled as 'soft' in the corners because they pull up and don't go hard.

a. Hopefully you aren't surprised because you recognize I am an adult who is all for stricter penalties for breaking rules about safety for a game that children play.

b. There have been no rule changes to the game, only asking refs to call infractions that have typically been ignored and increasing penalties for the infractions that are typically unsafe. Using other places not calling infractions by the rules as a reason for us not to is not very logical.

c. I don't know who this "we" you speak of is, but hopefully they are taught to play the game by the rules.

From reading your posts you seem to think any physical player must not be skilled and skilled players don't play physical.

You obviously do not want checking of any kind and the rule change you support is a "Ends Justify The Means" philosophy. However that is NEVER the case. Diving is not ok, cheap shots are not ok, lumping good clean players in because of a horrific accident is not ok. Ends "Do Not" justify the means.

Far from the truth. I have often referenced watching SSM play; they are probably the most physical teams in the state and the most talented but from the small sample of seeing them play, they do it mostly within the rules. Not sure where skill is brought up in any of my posts though.

To me this has nothing to do with this incident. There have been discussions about both safety and the rules plenty before this happened. To me it is about those two things; the rules and safety. Mostly the rules though. I don't "want more penalties to be called" (as someone else said), I want less infractions to be committed.

Perhaps if the player in question wasn't your son your post would have more credibility. I was there and the call was correct. The Lakeville player extended his arms / hands into the opposing player's head, thus head contact and the correct call.

Bingo

[Bronc]

called" (as someone else said), I want less infractions to be committed.

Perhaps if the player in question wasn't your son your post would have more credibility. I was there and the call was correct. The Lakeville player extended his arms / hands into the opposing player's head, thus head contact and the correct call.

Bingo [/quote]

Not my son, I believe min90 was speaking of S&D.

Good try though.

Best of luck to you.

[min090]

Sorry, was refering to NAHC

called" (as someone else said), I want less infractions to be committed.

Perhaps if the player in question wasn't your son your post would have more credibility. I was there and the call was correct. The Lakeville player extended his arms / hands into the opposing player's head, thus head contact and the correct call.

Bingo

Not my son, I believe min90 was speaking of S&D.

Good try though.

Best of luck to you.[/quote]

[almostashappy]

Two things.

1. What I want is for the player who is finishing his check illegally to go to the box, which rarely happens. Just like I think it's ridiculous that the NFL wants to prevent head injury but has no issue with a RB running down the field head first.

2. Okay, so let me get this straight; player A's head is lower because his "knees are bent and he's hell-bent on a hard hit" but for some reason while player B wants to dampen the hit and prevent injury he is standing straight up and puts his hands to where they will make contact with the opposing players head?
If the "tall person" was trying to dampen the blow, he would also bend his knees and if he has been taught that putting his hands to someone else's head will somehow dampen a blow or prevent injury, he has been taught quiet wrong.
Yes, player A is in the wrong. But to say that making head contact is the only thing player B should do also puts him in the wrong.

1. I agree completely about the need to eliminate gratuitous "finishing your checks" from the game. Accounting for momentum is one thing, but there should be no place on the ice for players who give it just a little more "umph" when they know that the ref is following the play, and not tracking what's taking place behind him.

2. Why do you think that players have an innate ability to instantly access the situation, consider all of their their options, and react correctly? And why do you want to penalize players who aren't that quick or omniscient?

Here's a hypothetical for someone who hasn't played hockey....

You are driving your car into a blind intersection. You are obeying all traffic rules and posted speed limits. You enter the intersection, and start to make a right turn, when......THERE'S A CAR IN YOUR LANE AND IT'S ABOUT TO HIT YOU HEAD ON! Quick....what do you do?

Let's say that your blink-of-an-eye reaction is to (a) hit the brakes, and (b) lift your arm to guard your face.

There is a head-on collision...nobody is seriously hurt, but both cars are totaled. The police arrive, and take statements. They give the other driver a ticket for being in the wrong lane, but also give you a ticket for unsafe driving...because you didn't have two hands on the steering wheel! And then the other driver's insurance company sues you, saying that instead of hitting the brakes you should have avoided the collision by swerving onto the adjacent shoulder.

I suppose you'd accept all of this, even though you know that none of this would have happened if the other driver wasn't doing something illegal in the first place?

[HShockeywatcher]

2. Why do you think that players have an innate ability to instantly access the situation, consider all of their their options, and react correctly? And why do you want to penalize players who aren't that quick or omniscient?

Here's a hypothetical for someone who hasn't played hockey....

You are driving your car into a blind intersection. You are obeying all traffic rules and posted speed limits. You enter the intersection, and start to make a right turn, when......THERE'S A CAR IN YOUR LANE AND IT'S ABOUT TO HIT YOU HEAD ON! Quick....what do you do?

Let's say that your blink-of-an-eye reaction is to (a) hit the brakes, and (b) lift your arm to guard your face.

There is a head-on collision...nobody is seriously hurt, but both cars are totaled. The police arrive, and take statements. They give the other driver a ticket for being in the wrong lane, but also give you a ticket for unsafe driving...because you didn't have two hands on the steering wheel! And then the other driver's insurance company sues you, saying that instead of hitting the brakes you should have avoided the collision by swerving onto the adjacent shoulder.

I suppose you'd accept all of this, even though you know that none of this would have happened if the other driver wasn't doing something illegal in the first place?

I simply think players who break rules should get penalized for it. Nowhere did I state that players have these "special powers" you seem to be saying I have said they have. I was simply responding to the post that (a) said the shorter player would have his knees bent while implying the taller player wouldn't and that (b) somehow touching another players' head is going to "prevent injury."

I don't pretend to know what goes through a player's head. I simply know that neither a or b are realistic and that head contact is very rarely called. And another poster commented that the penalty was called correctly who was at the game.

Driving with two hands on the wheel cannot be a law; every one with manual transmission would be SOL. Unless I'm missing something neither driver did much wrong. I failed to yield and the other driver didn't slow down and rear ended me.

Do I think that after many years of playing hockey a player would most likely realize that touching another players head will not prevent injury? Yes, most likely.
Do I think that after many years of playing hockey a player would most likely that playing the body of an incoming player would be a good way to "dampen the blow?" Yes, most likely.
Do I think that regardless of the amount of time a player has played the game and what they think will help handle a situation best they should be penalized for making contact with another player's head? Yes, most definitely.

[seek & destroy]

Here's a hypothetical for someone who hasn't played hockey....

Another driving hypothetical for HSHockey that I believe makes my point...

The rules of the road say you cannot go over 55 mph on 35W between 494 and 694...it has been deemed 'unsafe' by the people who make those decisions. There are cars that are going 65 - 70 mph in that area all the time and some are tagged for speeding or even worse, reckless driving. Due to an increase in accidents, police are now told that they no longer are allowed the discretion of giving just a speeding ticket. They are now required to give a 'reckless' driving ticket to ANYONE who goes over the speed limit.

One day you are driving and are going 57 mph and pulled over and given a ticket...after all you were breaking the rules of the road. The ticket is now for 'reckless' driving because they have no choice to give the lessor ticket of speeding.

In your arguments, you would say that, in the interest of increased safety, that is perfectly fine and that you deserve a 'reckless' driving ticket because you could have controlled your speed to under 55. My argument is that the police should not have lost the ability to make the judement of what is reckless and what is not.