Major Juniors vs. MN high school coach's assoc. - 2/26 Strib

[BodyShots]

Just heard that the reporter of this article will be on with Patrick Reusse in about 10 minutes on AM 1500 to discuss further.

http://www.1500espn.com/structurefiles/ ... _popup.php

Just got done listening. Thought it was interesting that Pauly was notified, but it was just one day before. I also thought it was interesting that the Baers had been given a heads up that it wasn't OK, although it isn't clear if they knew what sort of repercussions there would be. Also, it doesn't sound like Alec had any intention of graduating from BSM.

Correct, the reporter learned that the plan was at most to stay through his sophomore year. This begs the question, why should Pauly groom the kid for the WHL knowing he'd only have his services for another year? Give his spot to someone else who wants to be on the team through his senior year.

So you are telling a hockey association, once they realize a kid is going to a private school, they should immediately cut the kid and give the position to somebody who will go to the community high school?

[scorekeeper]

Why did it apparently have to be that weekend.

Because the team did not play that weekend. Always putting team first, the Baers intentionally picked a weekend that the team had off.

[scorekeeper]

Correct, the reporter learned that the plan was at most to stay through his sophomore year. This begs the question, why should Pauly groom the kid for the WHL knowing he'd only have his services for another year? Give his spot to someone else who wants to be on the team through his senior year.

Was Cloquet wrong to "groom" Kuhlman for his jump to the USHL? Was Hill Murray wrong to "groom" the 3 kids that left this year? etc. etc. etc. Good coaches prepare kids for the next step, whatever that may be. That's part of the job and they know that going in. They embrace that - they don't desperately cling on to them and try and hold them back.

[Tigers33]

TEAM FIRST = would have meant to go this weekend or the next, or the one after the state tournament.

Maybe he should have stayed at st louis park.

[observer]

My god people you have no clue at all!!! The choices he has are just fine, but NOT IN SEASON!!! He made a commitment to his team, school, and coach. Why couldn't he have explored those options after the benilde season? Why did it apparently have to be that weekend. This would be like a high school coach missing time to go interview with a junior team, or college team during the season. Remember I said he missed time to do so. What would the players and parents think of that? Would they question his loyalty to the team? Could he have waited til the season was over?

Someone is going to compare visiting a college as the same thing as visiting a WHL team. Really? If a player wants to visit a educational institution I am sure schools and the mshsl are probably okay with that. Remember people education is and should always be the most important thing. Correct?

My issues that I have was he/parents/advisor clearly were only thinking of what's best for the kid. And they did it during the season where he committed to playing at benilde.

Whatever. It did hurt Benilde last night and will hurt Pauley moving forward. I'm sure every player on the team backs Baer as they all have similar ambitions to play hockey beyond HS. Where a kid wants to do that isn't Pauley's business. He broke the spirit of the team over the last few weeks and will likely lose some future recruits. Not a good decision on his part.

[scorekeeper]

Whatever. It did hurt Benilde last night and will hurt Pauley moving forward. I'm sure every player on the team backs Baer as they all have similar ambitions to play hockey beyond HS. Where a kid wants to do that isn't Pauley's business. He broke the spirit of the team over the last few weeks and will likely lose some future recruits. Not a good decision on his part.

I think you're right. The players have been very supportive of him since it happened. Not saying they would have won last night, but it certainly can't help to have a coach turn on his players.

When the captain of a ship starts throwing crew members overboard, the mutiny isn't far behind.

[SWPrez]

Whatever. It did hurt Benilde last night and will hurt Pauley moving forward. I'm sure every player on the team backs Baer as they all have similar ambitions to play hockey beyond HS. Where a kid wants to do that isn't Pauley's business. He broke the spirit of the team over the last few weeks and will likely lose some future recruits. Not a good decision on his part.

BSM has become a victim of their own success. Bring kids in with promises of playing time as freshman (at the expense of seniors who's parents pay their monthly tuition only to see their loyalty and their kid get cut for a carpetbagger) and elite league spots as soph/juniors as part of the development package has only given these kids too much exposure. By the time they are juniors, they have been there/done that and are ready to move on to the next big thing.

The model of bringing in 3-4 freshman each year and giving them substantial playing time worked a few years ago. The team had to rely on bringing in two juniors from Blake and one from out of state (midget major) to fill the gaps of carpetbaggers leaving early.

I am sure this frustrates Pauly...but the loyalty door swings both ways now a days and BSM will need to find a new team building model and loyalty model to keep players in. Perhaps focusing on 'second tier' players and having 3-4 lines of them that will stick around, rather than developing and furthering the careers of superstars, maybe the model needs to be changed. Bring in a bunch of Andrew Alberts types and actually develop them rather than throwing a bunch of superstars on the ice and let them just do their thing.

[rocketscience]

Change what? The success of BSM lies significantly in the recruiting process that Pauly and his group developed. Makes big teams with big players. As long as you pay respect to the process you will yield the fruits. As kids move on to bigger things there are new ones coming in to repace them. If you decide you are bigger than the process, then the pipeline may freeze up. I doubt its frozen now but if respect to the process is not restored than it can freeze up and the pipeline will find other options.

This is highschool hockey. It's good but its not great and many of those that aspire to play at the highest levels will move to more challenging hockey environments. You want to control these kids fine. They'll go elsewhere. The way I see it, BSM has a great thing going - lots of fruit.

[Shinbone_News]

Despite the many advantages of the promised land of the WHL, as detailed by D3Ref, there just aren't very many MN kids going that route. Five, I think, total right now. The Walkers, Keegan Iverson, Bitman, and now Baer. Will this group start some kind of major exodus? We'll see in five years or so, when they all come home with either an NHL paycheck or a Canadian diploma. Right, D3?

[rocketscience]

Promised land? Never heard that said but you did. Hard work anywhere you go. WHL program is much tougher training on and off ice and the competition is leaps and bounds ahead of anything you face in Minnesota HS. For some this is a path and challenge that they want to take on. Your blissful ignorance aside, they don't give a rats ass what you think.

[scorekeeper]

We'll see in five years or so, when they all come home with either an NHL paycheck or a Canadian diploma. Right, D3?

Those are some options. Could also be a KHL paycheck, AHL paycheck, Bachelor degree from the University of Minnesota or other equivalent American University ... or perhaps they choose different route entirely and work in other segments of society, coach a high school team or some other form of work.

The one thing that seems GUARANTEED is that they will more success than over 95% of the posters on this forum

[O-townClown]

Prez, thanks. I've felt that was probably what is going on and you confirm it. You are familiar with the program. Giles went through a rather long period where top Edina youth players didn't end up at EHS. He figured out a way to adapt and I suspect Pauly will do the same.

D3, you have very strong opinions. That's fine when they rest atop an informed base, which yours are. Where I take exception is that your opinion is proffered as fact. Did you really just say the WHL is the best place for kids? Because I know some NHL alumni that strongly disagree with you. In their cases they wanted to play CHL hockey, their parents had them go a different route, and they are very thankful they did.

WHL, OHL, and QMJHL are one way to realize the NHL dream. So is the NCAA. Something like 30+% of active NHLers played NCAA hockey, which is surprising when so many top players choose Major Junior in Canada.

As for the education package, what about the kid that wants to play in front of 5,000+ in games on TV? It isn't the same as an offer to play college hockey and go to school in an NCAA program.

[scorekeeper]

... sorry ... duplicate. see below

[scorekeeper]

As for the education package, what about the kid that wants to play in front of 5,000+ in games on TV? It isn't the same as an offer to play college hockey and go to school in an NCAA program.

Then go to tryouts in Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver etc. where they get crowds of 15,000 or more in playoff and rivalry games. In fact, 14,656 packed the Saddledome in Calggary this year (home of the Calgary Flames) to watch the Calgary Hitmen play a non-divsion game against the last place team in the East in a regular season game.

The average attendance at WHL games hovers around the 5,000 mark, and yes, they have television in WHL markets as well
http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/ ... 9&sid=2012

The WHL has been the best path to the NHL based on numbers, putting through 20% of the NHL talent through it's small 22 team league (how many D1 teams are there?). What I found ironic about that is that Minnesota rosters the most WHL grads
http://blair-necessities.blogspot.ca/20 ... sters.html

[scorekeeper]

This year the WHL has 156 of it's graduates in the NHL (20% of active NHL rosters) and 301 of it's graduates in Universities as well as another 755 currently active and playing in the KHL, European and other North American professional leagues.

Additionally, scores of WHL grads are amongst the coaching ranks in all kinds of leagues around the world, from midgetAAA, to high school, Juniors and even the NHL.

If you are looking for a career in hockey, you can't go wrong through the WHL, and if you change your mind along the way, there is always a world class education, as the current crop of 301 can attest to. Hey, the world needs doctors and lawyers and engineers as well, and if that's your thing, the WHL scholarship will start you down that path as well

[east hockey]

We'll see in five years or so, when they all come home with either an NHL paycheck or a Canadian diploma. Right, D3?

Those are some options. Could also be a KHL paycheck, AHL paycheck, Bachelor degree from the University of Minnesota or other equivalent American University ... or perhaps they choose different route entirely and work in other segments of society, coach a high school team or some other form of work.

The one thing that seems GUARANTEED is that they will more success than over 95% of the posters on this forum

95% may be an understatement.

Lee

[HockeyTalk18]

Shinbone - missing the point,

nobody has a crystal ball into the future, just use the NHL draft as an example

the point is people have choices to follow any path they want, not just the ones that a coach decides is best for him.

I don't think there is a promise land for any of the directions the kids choose.
risk/reward to all of them.

I have seem a majority of people on here agree to kids developing at different stages. What a great time to be a young hockey player in MN, Association hockey in the winter along with extra's during the winter, follow that up with a team/group of your choice depending on your skill for the summer along with extras. Play HS hockey during HS or go to Ann Arbor, USHL,CHL, kids even have the choice of bouncing from HS to HS during HS. Have to allow all choices without prejudice, Late bloomer? stay in HS go to juniors to grow and develop and then make a run, many many options is what is best for all our MN hockey players

[O-townClown]

Scorekeeper, you've completely ignored the point.

Path One:

Play Canadian Major Junior when you are 16-20 in front of large crowds and maybe realize the NHL dream.

Path Two:

Play USHL in front of 3,500 or so when you are 16-19. Play NCAA hockey in front of 5,000-10,000 if you are at a WCHA or top CCHA school from age 20-3. Maybe realize the NHL dream.

Path One is a bad tradeoff in my opinion. To each their own. I don't care where these other kids play. If they asked me I would tell them to take Path Two unless it is the Seth Jones case (aged out of NTDP before 12th grade and is a slam-dunk Top 5 pick).

Those Seth Jones cases are rare.

[hawkhockey]

Why did it apparently have to be that weekend.

Because the team did not play that weekend. Always putting team first, the Baers intentionally picked a weekend that the team had off.

Always putting the team first? you've gotta be kidding me. when you put the team first you dont miss practice, especially to look at another team. If that's your idea of putting the team first I feel bad for your teammates when you played, if you did

[scorekeeper]

Scorekeeper, you've completely ignored the point.

Path One:

Play Canadian Major Junior when you are 16-20 in front of large crowds and maybe realize the NHL dream.

Path Two:

Play USHL in front of 3,500 or so when you are 16-19. Play NCAA hockey in front of 5,000-10,000 if you are at a WCHA or top CCHA school from age 20-3. Maybe realize the NHL dream.

Path One is a bad tradeoff in my opinion. To each their own. I don't care where these other kids play. If they asked me I would tell them to take Path Two unless it is the Seth Jones case (aged out of NTDP before 12th grade and is a slam-dunk Top 5 pick).

Those Seth Jones cases are rare.

I don't think I've ignored your point at all. I certainly disagree with you, but I haven't ignored the point.

Aside from the fact that Seth Jones is not guaranteed an NHL career, I would disagree that you need to be Seth Jones to be a good fit for the WHL. There are 156 guys playing in the NHL right now that prove that point and the WHL has been the #1 developmental path for all NHLers over the past 30 years. #1.

I am not disagreeing with you that the NCAA is not also a good path and I am not saying that the WHL is the ONLY path or that it is the path for everyone, (it is NOT for everyone), but it is and has been the #1 path to professional hockey INCLUDING and ESPECIALLY the NHL, putting more players in the NHL than any other path. Period.

ADDITIONALLY it puts a ton of kids in college/university and ADDITIONALLY it produces a ton of good hockey people.

I am sure you could find an NHLer or two who will say they regret playing CHL hockey, but for every one you can find who regrets it, I can find 100 who don't.

You present 2 paths as if there are only two but there are many - even through those two routes you present.

[scorekeeper]

Why did it apparently have to be that weekend.

Because the team did not play that weekend. Always putting team first, the Baers intentionally picked a weekend that the team had off.

Always putting the team first? you've gotta be kidding me. when you put the team first you dont miss practice, especially to look at another team. If that's your idea of putting the team first I feel bad for your teammates when you played, if you did

Missing 1 of 100 practices through the year to attend to a personal matter is hardly the sinister deed you are trying to spin it as, but nice try. Going out of your way to postpone the matter until a weekend your team is idle is appropriate.

[D3Referee]

D3, you have very strong opinions. That's fine when they rest atop an informed base, which yours are.

Well thank you, I appreciate that. I certainly don't profer my opinion as fact. As I always say, do your research. I know I do.

And look, there is no bigger high school hockey fan than myself , but when a kid gets an opportunity to do something special and they seize that opportunity, then why shouldn't we support them? And make no mistake, the WHL is a huge opportunity for those who can hack it. So is the USHL. So is the NCAA. Why would we hate on any of them? Why not embrace them all and be happy for the kids that accept those challenges.

There is good and bad and pros and cons to all and each situation is different for each player and each family. We should just sit back and wish them well, whatever they choose.

That's all I'm saying. Over and out.

[hawkhockey]

Because the team did not play that weekend. Always putting team first, the Baers intentionally picked a weekend that the team had off.

Always putting the team first? you've gotta be kidding me. when you put the team first you dont miss practice, especially to look at another team. If that's your idea of putting the team first I feel bad for your teammates when you played, if you did

Missing 1 of 100 practices through the year to attend to a personal matter is hardly the sinister deed you are trying to spin it as, but nice try. Going out of your way to postpone the matter until a weekend your team is idle is appropriate.

this is not an appropriate personal matter. this wasnt an ill family member, this was a recruiting trip. im not spinning it any way other than he left his team late in the season to scope out a new one. I'd like to compare this to having a girlfriend that decides to shop around for a new guy but comes back saying no its okay im just looking at them for later. chances are you're kicking her to the curb. and i can honestly tell you i never missed a practice in high school except when out with concussions. and even then i still went to practice

[scorekeeper]

Always putting the team first? you've gotta be kidding me. when you put the team first you dont miss practice, especially to look at another team. If that's your idea of putting the team first I feel bad for your teammates when you played, if you did

Missing 1 of 100 practices through the year to attend to a personal matter is hardly the sinister deed you are trying to spin it as, but nice try. Going out of your way to postpone the matter until a weekend your team is idle is appropriate.

this is not an appropriate personal matter. this wasnt an ill family member, this was a recruiting trip. im not spinning it any way other than he left his team late in the season to scope out a new one. I'd like to compare this to having a girlfriend that decides to shop around for a new guy but comes back saying no its okay im just looking at them for later. chances are you're kicking her to the curb. and i can honestly tell you i never missed a practice in high school except when out with concussions. and even then i still went to practice

Of course it's an appropriate personal matter. It's a personal issue that is potentially post-high school and requires some serious consideration.

Why use the girlfriend analagy when hockey has so many of it's own.

Kids go to Shattuck all the time in-season to skate for the SSM coaches. They hold skates monthly starting in January.

Dido for the NCAA colleges, who have hockey players in all winter to come for recruiting trips and skates.

Even the Northern Educate Academy holds in-season open houses.

Alec didn't even skate. Just watched a hockey game and met some legends.

This is hardly uncommon in the hockey community and if it were commonplace to kick kids off of teams for these reasons there would be a lot of short rosters.

Benilde crossed a line here and I'm sure they wish they could do it all over and handle it better, but what's done is done. Time to move on.

[O-townClown]

Scorekeeper, D3:

Would you be in favor of a CHL rule preventing teams from adding an American-born player under age 18 after February 1st?

There's no reason for them to do it and I'm not suggesting it. Hey, it isn't THEIR place to look out for kids.

I just find it odd that players like Keegan Iverson and Alec Baer are needed to close out the season. Many NHL guys get a look late in the season too, but they don't give anything up for that opportunity. Look up the hockey bios for guys like Jim Boo or J.T. Brown...it's always been that way.

The complaint, and I've heard this from NHL personnel, is that the purpose of the late-season game is to lock players in for next year.

Ask a kid if he wants to play hockey. They answer is probably yes. Ask if he wants to go to the NHL. They probably say yes. Can't they wait a few months to ask?

Seems like a big difference between the Walker brothers who left to play full seasons and Iverson or Baer.

Oh well, it is what it is. The WHL (OHL/Q) has no obligation to worry about the NCAA schools, so I'm not surprised this happens.